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Alignment/Good Parts springs question

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SCguy

SCguy

Jedi Warrior
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I've install Good Parts springs all around and I'm scheduled for a four wheel alignment next week. Here's my question...

I didn't install Good Parts spacers as I wanted my car lowered. I just used nylatron stock sized spacers between my car and springs. My car currently has no shims in the front. It appears that my tires are further out at the bottom by 3/8 of an inch. Hopefully the picture will explain more clearly. Do I have to get spacers for my springs? or is this OK?



Larry
 
Hi Larry,
I don't have the alignment specs handy so you will have to check if it is acceptable but you have a negative camber of 1.4 degrees based on your info.
For the front end, puting in spacers will not change your camber. This only works on the rear of this car.
Have you done anything else to the front end other than replace the springs?
Roman
 
It might be. A little camber is OK for handling purposes, but the alignment will be the tell tale. I've got the exact same setup that you have and the bottom of my wheels are an 1/8th inch further out than the top. I do not have any shims installed either.

I'm curious to what your alignment guys says.
 
The front has nylatron bushings done by my mechanic. The car has just had a ground up restoration and I'm trying to get it road ready. I'm going to take a day off work to have the alignment done, so I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly when I get there.

Roman... Are you saying that if my springs where a little taller (by adding spacers) this wouldn't effect my negative camber? It's all very confusing to me.
 
Hi Larry,

With modern tires, *a bit* of negative camber such as is on your car can be a good thing. It helps in cornering. Most road cars have a bit less than shown in your photo, but it doesn't look very radical either. It's a bit hard to measure accurately without the right equipment, you can only get a rough idea with a framing square such as you are using.

The alignment shop will use accurate measuring devices and install or remove shims at the lower/inner a-arm mounts to adjust camber. They usually measure in degrees. Somewhere between 0 and 1 degree of negative camber might be best on a street TR with modern tires (early TRs had up to 3 degrees *positive* camber, meaning the top of the tire tilted out, to work best with old-style bias ply tires). A racer might dial in 1.5 to 2 or even more degrees of negative camber, to make the car stick like glue in the corners. But, that can make for fast tire wear on the inside edge and isn't ideal for daily street use.

So have the alignment shop measure it, see what you've got and advise. I don't know the Goodparts items you mentioned, but doubt that any spacers would have much effect other than changing ride height.

The only problem is if there's insufficient adjustment available via shim removal. If that's the case, is it possible the upper fulcrums (on top of the spring/shock towers) are in backwards? I'm not 100% certain about TR6, but on some other TRs they can be oriented either way and it makes a difference. The same part is used but oriented opposite directions on TR3 than TR4, I forget which is which without looking it up. A manual will show proper orientation.

Another possibility, is the cross-brace in place, running across the engine compartment, bolted between the tops of the spring/shock towers? I've seen these removed and left off, and after a while the spring/shock towers can incline inwards more than they should. That would mess up front alignment badly, in the direction you are seeing there.

There are also several different cross braces used during TR production, but I don't know if they varied during the TR6 run.

Finally, was any work done on the lower suspension mounting brackets, that might have repositioned them farther outward?

If the cross brace and fulcrums are correctly installed, and there still isn't sufficient movement possible in the lower adjusting points to get it set up properly, the alignment shop can best advise you. They might want shim the upper towers apart by putting spacers under the cross brace, or heat and bend the vertical links, which are a couple possible solutions. Another is a set of adjustable upper fulcrums, such as Revington TR sells.

Hope this helps!
 
Hi Larry,
I just consulted my copy of The Complete Official Triumph TR6 & TR250 and I may have been hasty in my first reply.
The length of the spring does play a part in setting the camber angle on the TR6.
The spec for the camber angles is 1/4 deg. positive +/- 1 deg. 1/4 deg negative +/- 1/2 degree. So according to your information you have excessive negative camber.
Then i read this "Befor altering camber angles, ensure that the cause is not attributable to wear in the ball joints, trunnions, wishbone bushes or worn road springs."
So you may have been right all along since a worn spring is shorter than a new one.
Now that I am thoroughly confused I would suggest consulting with Richard Good or you alignment shop.
Sorry/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Roman
 
I too just replaced my front and rear springs with GoodPart springs. However I used the spacers to keep it at the right height. I will have to try the roofers square tomorrow and see what I get. I am also planning to get a 4 wheel alignment next month. I also replaced the rear bushings with goodparts. I also used his adjustable brackets. The passenger side looks ok. The driver side looks like it needs a little adjustment. I figure since I'm taking it in for an alignment anyways I am gonna try adjusting it myself.
 
I'm pretty sure adding spacers will give you more positive camber, so worst case senario, you add spacers. I would still take it to the shop just to see. The camber might not measure that bad.

At any rate, I've got a f/r set Richard's spacers that you can have if you need them. But the car looks so much better lowered an inch IMO, that I would definitely get it checked first.
 
SCguy, could we see a side view picture of your TR with the Richard Good springs installed. From what I've seen on other TRs, with these springs they look great.
 
I e-mailed Good Parts and got this reply right away!

"Well, lets calculate the camber in degrees. Looks like you are measuring at the outer edge of the rim so that is probably about 16" apart. If we consider that the radius of a circle, the diameter would be 32" and times 3.1416 would give us a circumference of 100.53". Dividing this by 360 degrees would give us 0.279" per degree. Your measurement of 0.375" along the circumference of our imaginary circle divided by 0.279" per degree would be 1.34 degrees. Probably a bit much for street. You can decide what camber you want. I would probably set it at about 3/4 degree."

So, it's beginning to look like I'll have to add spring spacers as ther are no shims to take out as the easiest fix. Not what I wanted to do.
 
Let's rethink the math here. The circumference of a circle is calculated by the formula (pie*diameter) or (2*pie*radius). If your measuring at the edge of the wheel and not the tire then a 16 inch wheel has a diameter of 16 inches. Richard's email assumes 16 to be the radius so he doubles it to get 32. This looks like an error as 16 inches is already the diameter. Am I crazy or missing something?
 
He's probably assuming the edge of the tire - but then that would be 30" not 32.

Why not wait and see what your suspension guy has to say - it's going in next week anyway isn't it?
 
Don't think I would trust a square on the garage floor as very accurate. I check mine with an camber guage available from race suppliers. Make sure the front tires are on the level using thin masonite and/or sheet metal squares. I use a carpenters level and a chunk of aluminum square stock to span the distance. If you need to adjust the upper out a little bit consider oblonging the upper ball joint mounting holes on the upper A arms with a die grinder. Once you establish the final location you can weld a washer of flat stock to better hold the position and strengthen the outer part of the arm. Of course whenever you adjust the camber it affects toe also.
 
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