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TheSearcherMan
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Mr. Brosky, I realize you are in the break in period, but what are you running at idle on the A/F gauge? What are you running when cruising on a level road?
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A/F
- Thread starter TheSearcherMan
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Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Searcher,
I will get those numbers (as accurately as possible) for you and post by Weds evening. I would really be guessing at anything now, since I've kept my foot light because of the break in restrictions. I will be moving up to the 4,000 RPM range this week, but I won't get the car back out until Weds afternoon again to do any driving.
I did watch the gauge yesterday (infrequently) and I believe that I'm idling somewhere in the 14.2-14.8 range and I can remember seeing 13.5-13.8 in a cruising scenario, but to be honest, I watched the temp, oil and voltage gauges much, much more than the AF, so don't count those as being valid observations.
Put it this way, I didn't see anything that made me nervous or I would have shut it down until fixed.
Occasionally, (it happened twice in a lot of stop and go in 180 miles of driving) I do get a rough idle and I have looked at the AF meter and I'm at 16 when that happens, so something is sticking or causing a lean problem, but I just haven't had the time to get into it, other than tweaking the timing via the adjustable wheel by 2 degrees yesterday and that smoothed everything out again.
By this weekend, I'm going to do some tweaking and get it tuned right on the money. I have several distributors all rebuilt and ready to go with various curves and Pertronix, as well as points, but those won't be swapped around until after the 600-700 mile head re-torquing.
EDIT: Based on what I read in the other post that you guys are discussing, I am using ZS oil in these and the springs are stock inside the carbs, with B1AF needles in all three carbs.
I will get those numbers (as accurately as possible) for you and post by Weds evening. I would really be guessing at anything now, since I've kept my foot light because of the break in restrictions. I will be moving up to the 4,000 RPM range this week, but I won't get the car back out until Weds afternoon again to do any driving.
I did watch the gauge yesterday (infrequently) and I believe that I'm idling somewhere in the 14.2-14.8 range and I can remember seeing 13.5-13.8 in a cruising scenario, but to be honest, I watched the temp, oil and voltage gauges much, much more than the AF, so don't count those as being valid observations.
Put it this way, I didn't see anything that made me nervous or I would have shut it down until fixed.
Occasionally, (it happened twice in a lot of stop and go in 180 miles of driving) I do get a rough idle and I have looked at the AF meter and I'm at 16 when that happens, so something is sticking or causing a lean problem, but I just haven't had the time to get into it, other than tweaking the timing via the adjustable wheel by 2 degrees yesterday and that smoothed everything out again.
By this weekend, I'm going to do some tweaking and get it tuned right on the money. I have several distributors all rebuilt and ready to go with various curves and Pertronix, as well as points, but those won't be swapped around until after the 600-700 mile head re-torquing.
EDIT: Based on what I read in the other post that you guys are discussing, I am using ZS oil in these and the springs are stock inside the carbs, with B1AF needles in all three carbs.
Trick6
Jedi Hopeful
Offline
Paul:
I am hoping that my AFR is as good. I think it is because when I turn the needle ajustment up and down, I get a different plug read. This is a good sign. My carbs came from Jeff with very skinny (rich) B1AR's in there. Nothing I could do with ajusting them would lean the motor out. This was on the dyno with the tail pipe o2 monitor. I have since replaced the needles with the stock B1AF's. The B1AR's are too skinny to do any custom work on them. I know. How about fishing hooks?
I am hoping that my AFR is as good. I think it is because when I turn the needle ajustment up and down, I get a different plug read. This is a good sign. My carbs came from Jeff with very skinny (rich) B1AR's in there. Nothing I could do with ajusting them would lean the motor out. This was on the dyno with the tail pipe o2 monitor. I have since replaced the needles with the stock B1AF's. The B1AR's are too skinny to do any custom work on them. I know. How about fishing hooks?
T
Tinster
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Guest
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Brosky said:
<span style="color: #CC0000">Paul,
I almost have the Crypt Car fuel delivery system sorted out. Then I will
replace the ignition system. Do you want to sell one of those rebuilt dizzys?
I have one that Jeff rebuilt but it has 1400 difficult miles on it.
Probably time for a new one?
thanks,
dale</span>
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
Offline
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Occasionally, (it happened twice in a lot of stop and go in 180 miles of driving) I do get a rough idle and I have looked at the AF meter and I'm at 16 when that happens, so something is sticking or causing a lean problem,[/QUOTE]
I think that I've narrowed it down to a possible issue with the anti-run on valve causing the mixture to lean out at times.
I have a spare that I may pull apart to see what makes it tick.
I think that I've narrowed it down to a possible issue with the anti-run on valve causing the mixture to lean out at times.
I have a spare that I may pull apart to see what makes it tick.
R
RonMacPherson
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Quick field diagnostic test. Grap a pair of hose pinch pliers(the ones that look like large vicegrips with needle nose) pinch the hose that feeds the vacuum to the anti runon valve closed. Then road test.
Either the problem is still extant, which means something else. Or the problem quits, which means it's the anitrun on valve.
Either the problem is still extant, which means something else. Or the problem quits, which means it's the anitrun on valve.
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Don,
I simply kept it to keep the brake light, oil light and everything working properly. I never noticed a problem before and I'm not sure I have one now, but just taking a WAG at what could make the mixture suddenly go lean on an intermittent basis.
I suppose that I could simply unplug one of the wires for a test drive and that would disable the valve, but Ron's test is better because it isolates the vacuum only and doesn't leave me guessing about the valve.
I simply kept it to keep the brake light, oil light and everything working properly. I never noticed a problem before and I'm not sure I have one now, but just taking a WAG at what could make the mixture suddenly go lean on an intermittent basis.
I suppose that I could simply unplug one of the wires for a test drive and that would disable the valve, but Ron's test is better because it isolates the vacuum only and doesn't leave me guessing about the valve.
OP
TheSearcherMan
Jedi Trainee
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Were are you buying all these ZS needles? The only ones I heard that are available are a few Jag needles?
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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I don't know if there is or not Don. I've never given it much thought, because it was never really an issue. I'm sure that someone out there found how to bypass the valve (electrically) and leave all wires connected and working so that the charcoal cannister still does it's job.
poolboy
Yoda
Offline
I've been fooling around with the anti run-on valve/ carbon cannister relationship lately in an attempt to understand what would be affected when I removed both of them.
The Haynes manual Chapter 13 in the "Evaporative emission control system--description" has a pretty good description of what happens and when.
A couple of things you can consider. The manifold vacuum is only supposed to enter the ARV when you turn the ignition key to off. A contact in the ignition switch activates the solenoid in the ARV and opens it's port to the manifold vacuum. The vacuum only last for an instant, but long enough to transfer the vacuum to the carbon cannister and on to it's final destination, the carb's float chamber. That's the anti run-on part.
The next thing that happens is when the oil pressure in the stopped engine drops enough to "activate" the oil pressure switch. One of the wire connections on the oil pressure switch leads to the solenoid and deactvates the solenoid.
When you turn the engine off with cold oil you might be able to hear the click of the solenoid some seconds after the engine stops.
So you can deactivate the solenoid by disconnecting the lead from the oil pressure switch or you can eliminate the functionality of the of the vacuum line from the manifold.
Either way you won't be getting any vacuum in either the carbon cannister or the ARV, EXCEPT from the carbs and their valve cover vent hose.
I hope that helps some, There's a lot happening in a short period of time and my engine didn't miss it a bit.
The Haynes manual Chapter 13 in the "Evaporative emission control system--description" has a pretty good description of what happens and when.
A couple of things you can consider. The manifold vacuum is only supposed to enter the ARV when you turn the ignition key to off. A contact in the ignition switch activates the solenoid in the ARV and opens it's port to the manifold vacuum. The vacuum only last for an instant, but long enough to transfer the vacuum to the carbon cannister and on to it's final destination, the carb's float chamber. That's the anti run-on part.
The next thing that happens is when the oil pressure in the stopped engine drops enough to "activate" the oil pressure switch. One of the wire connections on the oil pressure switch leads to the solenoid and deactvates the solenoid.
When you turn the engine off with cold oil you might be able to hear the click of the solenoid some seconds after the engine stops.
So you can deactivate the solenoid by disconnecting the lead from the oil pressure switch or you can eliminate the functionality of the of the vacuum line from the manifold.
Either way you won't be getting any vacuum in either the carbon cannister or the ARV, EXCEPT from the carbs and their valve cover vent hose.
I hope that helps some, There's a lot happening in a short period of time and my engine didn't miss it a bit.
OP
TheSearcherMan
Jedi Trainee
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I'm just curious, the fuel tank overflow goes to the cannister, when you remove, what are you doing, venting the fuel to the ground?
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Searcher,
That was my concern about disconnecting vacuum. but if it only ever pulls when the ignitions switch is shut off, there should be no problem.
Do the hoses from the charcoal filter bring recycled emissions back to the carbs or is it the other way around? It seems to me that the cannister would be having something happen from the vacuum going to it at all times.
I did put one of my little Lisle hose clamps on the vacuum line and clamped off any source of vacuum. I drove it 10 miles and had a nice smooth idle and no other apparent issues or that burning stench that comes from a lean exhaust. At idle the A/F was between 13.5-14.8 constantly, but on hard acceleration, I drop down in the 11-8-12.0 range for a split second and when I let off, it goes right back to the lean side at the idle specs. I have no black smoke and all seems well. I actually think that I could bring the timing up another degree or two, which I will attempt over the weekend.
I guess that once I study the manual a bit as Poolboy did and fully grasp his explanation, which looks like the carbs act as pullers of vacuum to recycle the emissions, I think that I'll end up plugging the line at the manifold banjo and just dropping the line from the cannister to an unseen spot.
My only concern is getting the fuel tank vapors back in the cannister/carbs and not in the car. I'm wondering if the carbs pull enough to do that? From the size of the hoses, I would imagine that they do. Thoughts?
That was my concern about disconnecting vacuum. but if it only ever pulls when the ignitions switch is shut off, there should be no problem.
Do the hoses from the charcoal filter bring recycled emissions back to the carbs or is it the other way around? It seems to me that the cannister would be having something happen from the vacuum going to it at all times.
I did put one of my little Lisle hose clamps on the vacuum line and clamped off any source of vacuum. I drove it 10 miles and had a nice smooth idle and no other apparent issues or that burning stench that comes from a lean exhaust. At idle the A/F was between 13.5-14.8 constantly, but on hard acceleration, I drop down in the 11-8-12.0 range for a split second and when I let off, it goes right back to the lean side at the idle specs. I have no black smoke and all seems well. I actually think that I could bring the timing up another degree or two, which I will attempt over the weekend.
I guess that once I study the manual a bit as Poolboy did and fully grasp his explanation, which looks like the carbs act as pullers of vacuum to recycle the emissions, I think that I'll end up plugging the line at the manifold banjo and just dropping the line from the cannister to an unseen spot.
My only concern is getting the fuel tank vapors back in the cannister/carbs and not in the car. I'm wondering if the carbs pull enough to do that? From the size of the hoses, I would imagine that they do. Thoughts?
OP
TheSearcherMan
Jedi Trainee
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Not yet, I have been wondering what I will do with the cannister when I do the FI deal. I think the early cars had expansion tanks, and the fumes were just vented in to the atmosphere, not sure, however I do know there were expansion tanks. I want to make the FI look like the PI, except for the fuel rail and a few hoses. I intend to call the Fatherland tomorow or Saturday and maybe place the order for the PI throttle bodies and just about everything except the MU and the Pump. This is somewhat risky, cause I only want to do it one way. I am just not interested in dealing with 6 butterflies. The reason to make it look stock is strickly for resale value. I just haven't seen modified cars bring top dollar, however, some may be.
poolboy
Yoda
Offline
I tell you what I did with the vapor line from the fuel tank. I slid it into the line that used to go to the Cannister from the valve cover/ carbs.
So instead of both going to the Charcoal cannister, I bypassed (removed) the cannister and now they are directly connected to one another.
There's one other line that went to the cannister that I had to deal with and that was the one that vented or pulled a vacuum to the float chamber as the anti run-on feature.
Once I was sure that I had no run on issue by doing just what Paul suggested, plugging the vacuum at the banjo, I just tucked the line that went from the canister to the float chamber out of the way. I don't think it would be good to cap them off at the carbs, although I haven't tried that, because I think that they need to be at least open vented. There's no need for any vacuum on them at all. I did discover that much. That is if you don't suffer from run-on.
The reason I did all that was because I have a 74 which probably had the most extensive amount of anti polution hoses and vacuum line of any TR6 ever built.
And I just wanted to see what could be removed and get down to basics. Gone too is the EGR stuff.
I can't say the car runs any better, but I don't see where it hurt anything or detracted from performance either.
So that's been my experience, so far so good.
So instead of both going to the Charcoal cannister, I bypassed (removed) the cannister and now they are directly connected to one another.
There's one other line that went to the cannister that I had to deal with and that was the one that vented or pulled a vacuum to the float chamber as the anti run-on feature.
Once I was sure that I had no run on issue by doing just what Paul suggested, plugging the vacuum at the banjo, I just tucked the line that went from the canister to the float chamber out of the way. I don't think it would be good to cap them off at the carbs, although I haven't tried that, because I think that they need to be at least open vented. There's no need for any vacuum on them at all. I did discover that much. That is if you don't suffer from run-on.
The reason I did all that was because I have a 74 which probably had the most extensive amount of anti polution hoses and vacuum line of any TR6 ever built.
And I just wanted to see what could be removed and get down to basics. Gone too is the EGR stuff.
I can't say the car runs any better, but I don't see where it hurt anything or detracted from performance either.
So that's been my experience, so far so good.