TR4/4A 3 point seat belts on a TR4?

[TR4A_IRS]

Have any of you converted your TR4 or TR6 from lap belts to 3 point belts? I am guessing the TR2s and 3s never had seatbelts and the TR6s came with a mix of 2 or 3 point belts, depending on year of manufacture.

I am considering adding 3 point belts to my 4A, but am wondering if the seats shouldn't be swapped out for TR6 seats as well to provide the headrest etc.

I have pondered this several times in the past and have always just left well enough alone because I didn't want to bugger up the car with incorrect seats etc, but the safety aspect of 3 point belts keeps me coming back for another look.

TIA.

 

[Andrew Mace]

As the inner structure of the TR4 is essentially the same as that of the TR6, there's no reason why you couldn't mount three-point belts in a TR4 using the same mounting points. This is a separate issue, though, from headrests, which offer protection from rear-end collisions, while the belts offer protection in just about any other impact.

 

[Bob_Muzio]

Ian, I have had three point belts in my TR4 for almost 10 years. I secured the shoulder segment to the rear wheel well and the mounting is hidden by the upholstery flap that hides the top frame. I've also seen the belt attached to a roll bar unit. The seat belt portion is mounted to the normal TR4 floor mountin points. I obtained the sets from Moss Motors.
Bob

 

[TR4A_IRS]

Thanks Andrew and Bob. It sounds like I can easily retrofit and keep the stock seats, which will work nicely, as I will only have to drill two holes and add some reinforcing plates.

I think the 4A has a different top frame than the 4, so I may not be able to hide the upper mounting point, but that isn't a big problem as the top is usually down with a hoodstick cover on that will surely cover up any unsightly bolts. :laugh:

Bob - did you seat belt sets come with reinforcement plates for the upper mounting points on the wheel wells?

 

[Geo Hahn]

Just my opinion, but in a car without a roll bar I do not care to be strapped in an upright position should the worst happen.

Okay, I realize we may be talking about the difference between a closed casket or open casket at the funeral, but still I think I'll take my chances diving to the right and down.

 

[wingsandwheels]

Yes you can mount later 3 point belts with or without inertia reels on the earlier TR's, however (apologies if i am stating the obvious), you must reinforce the upper inner fender where the shoulder belt mounts. It is easiest to use a large diameter, thick washer or you could make a doubler.

Kai at Wishbone Classics sourced a nice set of belts that look very close to the originals in my 6, the reels are almost identical, and the kit included a set of large washers.

w

 

[Andrew Mace]

Just my opinion, but in a car without a roll bar I do not care to be strapped in an upright position should the worst happen.

That certainly would be true with a snug, four-point racing-style harness, which absolutely should NEVER be used without a stout roll bar. However, with either an inertia reel setup or properly worn static belts and shoulder harness (a fist should just fit snugly between your chest and the shoulder strap), you'll have the same potential opportunity for that movement down and to the right (or left, depending on where you're seated) as you would with lap belts alone. Again, I'd note that the majority of crashes are frontal crashes, and that's where the seat/shoulder belt has the greatest potential to avoid or lessen injury.

 

[TR4A_IRS]

Just my opinion, but in a car without a roll bar I do not care to be strapped in an upright position should the worst happen.

That certainly would be true with a snug, four-point racing-style harness, which absolutely should NEVER be used without a stout roll bar. However, with either an inertia reel setup or properly worn static belts and shoulder harness (a fist should just fit snugly between your chest and the shoulder strap), you'll have the same potential opportunity for that movement down and to the right (or left, depending on where you're seated) as you would with lap belts alone. Again, I'd note that the majority of crashes are frontal crashes, and that's where the seat/shoulder belt has the greatest potential to avoid or lessen injury.

I'm with you on this one Andrew. I don't race, but I do drive my other car at the track with local car clubs and your assessment of roll bars and harnesses is spot on.

I also don't think there is a human alive that could "duck" while their car was rolling onto it's roof or, in our case, lack thereof. The forces generated by a car rolling or flipping are more than a person can overcome.

My main concern is keeping my head and chest out of the steering column. I know it is designed to collapse in a collision, but a little extra protection is a good thing, in my opinion.

I do actually have a roll bar, but it is not currently installed. I removed it because I thought it looked a bit too much like I was trying to look like a race car driver, but I have contemplated putting it back in several times for the added rollover protection.

I drive my TR like a grandpa most days but, after I started having kids, I started worrying more about the "what ifs" in life. Additionally, I would like to take my kids out in the car as they get older, but I almost feel like that would be irresponsible given how unsafe these cars are compared to your average new car.

 

[TR3driver]

I also don't think there is a human alive that could "duck" while their car was rolling onto it's roof or, in our case, lack thereof.

Perhaps not, but I can bore you with specific examples of people who survived major crashes BECAUSE they were not wearing their seat belts.

In my Dad's case, a rather large log came through the center of the windshield, bent the steering wheel double, and took out the B-post behind his shoulder. We had to literally pull the car off the log. He survived with only minor scratches to his face and forearms where he dove into the broken glass in the passenger floor.

Another friend only lost some scalp after her trunk lid was driven through the passenger compartment. Had she been restrained by a shoulder belt, it would almost certainly have taken her head off instead.

I could go on ...

 

[martx-5]

...Perhaps not, but I can bore you with specific examples of people who survived major crashes BECAUSE they were not wearing their seat belts...

And I could bore you with specific examples of people surviving crashes BECAUSE they were wearing seat belts...twice in my own experiences...both in TRs. I'll take my chances with the belts.

 

[Andrew Mace]

In my Dad's case, a rather large log came through the center of the windshield, bent the steering wheel double, and took out the B-post behind his shoulder. We had to literally pull the car off the log. He survived with only minor scratches to his face and forearms where he dove into the broken glass in the passenger floor.

I do not wish to turn this into a debate, but your example is exactly what I hinted at: a properly worn static lap/shoulder belt, or virtually every current interia lap/shoulder belt, likely would NOT have kept him from making that dive. And yes, there are always exceptions and unique circumstances...one probable reason why we no longer have Dale Ernhardt, Sr. for example. But from everything I've seen and read, and from various friends and acquaintance who are still on the top side of this earth because of belts, I'll continue to go with them to help in the vast majority of potential crashes.

And yes, I do also have at least one friend who survived a frontal crash in a Spitfire even though he was unbelted. He and I credit the collapsible steering column...the fact that he was asleep (therefore, relaxed)...and sheer luck...for his survival.