TR2/3/3A 3/8" belt and pulley conversion kit

[Meyer'sTR3]

I have tried just about everything to eliminate the screeching sound coming from the water pump area. It went away for awhile when I installed a new Gates belt, but then returned. I pulled the water pump pulley off and wire brushed all the old rust and grime off the pulley thinking this would surely solve the problem. No dice. I have tried loosening the belt, tightening the belt, making sure the belt is lined up properly (this is a alternator conversion car). Nothing works. If I take the belt off and start the engine it purrs like a kitten. So....I know it is either the belt itself or the water pump. However, since I did get it to quiet down for a time by installing a new belt, this would seem to suggest that it is not the water pump? Then again, if I tighten the belt to it's normal tension the sound gets a lot louder. (pump bearings??) I am about to install a new 6 blade water pump from Moss. If the noise still persists after that then I am considering installing this new (3/8" belt & pulley conversion kit) from Moss. This will give me new pulleys all around and the proper belt. My question is: has anyone in here done this? Supposedly according to Moss it helps with engine vibration etc; and is a good upgrade. It isn't cheap and I don't want to waste my money, but I am really getting frustrated with this noisy belt issue. Someone out there on some forum warned against eliminating the stock engine fan (removing the engine fan and installing an electric fan is part of the deal with this) because it would throw the balance off and could cause crank shaft damage??? Anyway, I will replace the water pump and see if that does it. Then...........????? :sorrow:

 

[trglory]

You shouldn't have to convert to 3/8" belt to solve your problem. If it's the water pump, the new part should do the job. Make sure that the water pump pulley and the alternator pulley are aligned and get the correct tension on the belt. However, if you do decide to make the switch to the smaller belt, the story about crank shaft damage is complete rubbish.

 

[RJS]

Well,

I once had a similar chirping sound which came from a defective wide belt. It was manufactured by Flennor. Somehow, the internals of the belt became damaged and created this infuriating chirping sound. I tried everything including polishing the pulleys, sanding the sides of the belt, spraying on "belt treatment". Nothing worked until I replaced it with a quality NAPA/Gate belt.

Just my 2 cents but, that's not to say it still couldn't be the waterpump in your case.

Bob

 

[TR3driver]

Maybe I missed something : Why can't it be the alternator? They have bearings, which do sometimes fail and tightening the belt would increase the noise, either from the bearing itself or from the rotor rubbing on the stator.

Like Bob, I've had noisy belts, but changing the belt would seem to eliminate that. Not likely you got two bad ones in a row.

Have you checked that the pulleys are lined up?

There has been a lot of discussion about removing the stock fan, and it's effect on dampening harmonic vibration. I do think there is some truth to it; but I have put down a whole lot of hard miles without the stock fan and never broken a crank. The engine that was in my TR3A went probably 100,000 miles (maybe even more) that way, and the only issue I had was that the pulley hub wasn't clamped firmly to the crank and eventually worked loose. Making a custom clamp piece instead of just a big flat washer solved that problem (basically a crude version of the fan eliminator). I suspect part of the key is not exceeding 5000 rpm for very long. It seems to be mostly racers running at well over 5k that have problems.

But I am certain that, if you had a broken crank, you'd be noticing more than just screeching from the belt/pulley area.

 

[Meyer'sTR3]

Thanks guys. I recently installed a new alternator as well, so the problem isn't with that. Also I tend to agree that I need not worry about crank shaft issues if I eliminate the stock fan. I really never take it up to 5000 RPMs. It's an old car and I can have plenty of fun throwing it around curves without running it to red line. (I love the low end torque these cars have.) Its possible that there may be an alignment issue with the alternator but it looks pretty lined up to me. Maybe not perfect, but just looking at it it's hard to detect any misalignment. I'm hoping it's the water pump, which I will replace in the next two days. I also have ordered another high quality gates belt to install as well. I'll nail it down here sometime soon. I just can't stand noises like this that drive me crazy. Thanks again for the input. :grey:

 

[charleyf]

If you thought it was a squeaky belt originally did you try running a brush on the belt face while the car is running?
charley

 

[TFB]

They also make "belt dressing"in an areosal can.A quick shot while running may quiet things and pin down if its the belt,or if the sides are glazed scuff it up with a scotch brite.
I went the Moss 3/8 eliminator kit also,and so far like it.As far as the fan,my guess is the typical fan probably induces more vibration then they dampen,with out of balance and also out of pitch,and if you can take pounds off the back end with lightened flywheels,what is the difference taking it off the front?
Not sure how Moss came up with the 5hp increase I believe was mentioned in catalog but even if its half that I like it.
BTW,with the wizard rad.and the fan shroud installed my electric fan rarely comes on unless
I am stopped,although I haven't been out over 85f.
Tom
Tom

 

[TR3driver]

and if you can take pounds off the back end with lightened flywheels,what is the difference taking it off the front?

The difference would be that the fan is mounted with rubber between it and the crankshaft. The rubber acts as a sound/vibration absorber; a lot like laying your hand on a big bell. The crankshaft has certain resonant frequencies where it will literally ring like a bell; in fact one of the "old time" tests for a cracked crankshaft was to hang it up and tap to see if it would ring. The problem, if there is one, is that the ringing plus the torque from the cylinders firing, stresses the metal beyond it's fatigue limit. Run under those conditions long enough, and it breaks.
Lightening the flywheel actually reduces crank stress slightly, by allowing more of the torsional vibration to be conducted to the driveshaft and rear axle.

Even without an aluminum radiator, my electric fan never comes on unless I am stopped or am just pulling away from a stop.

5hp is a _lot_ of power to be wasting over such a small area. Think of a portable electric heater, which uses around 1/3 that much power. There is no way the belt is wasting that much under any kind of continuous conditions, otherwise it would go up in smoke! I'd be really surprised if you can even measure the difference between a wide belt and a narrow one, at the rear wheels under real world conditions.

Another way to look at it, it only takes 10-15 hp at the rear wheels to hold a constant 70 mph. If you really found a way to save 5hp output from the engine, you would see a large decrease in fuel consumption. But it doesn't happen.

 

[TFB]

The difference would be that the fan is mounted with rubber between it and the crankshaft. The rubber acts as a sound/vibration absorber; a lot like laying your hand on a big bell. The crankshaft has certain resonant frequencies where it will literally ring like a bell; in fact one of the "old time" tests for a cracked crankshaft was to hang it up and tap to see if it would ring. The problem, if there is one, is that the ringing plus the torque from the cylinders firing, stresses the metal beyond it's fatigue limit. Run under those conditions long enough, and it breaks.
Lightening the flywheel actually reduces crank stress slightly, by allowing more of the torsional vibration to be conducted to the driveshaft and rear axle.

Even without an aluminum radiator, my electric fan never comes on unless I am stopped or am just pulling away from a stop.

5hp is a _lot_ of power to be wasting over such a small area. Think of a portable electric heater, which uses around 1/3 that much power. There is no way the belt is wasting that much under any kind of continuous conditions, otherwise it would go up in smoke! I'd be really surprised if you can even measure the difference between a wide belt and a narrow one, at the rear wheels under real world conditions.

Another way to look at it, it only takes 10-15 hp at the rear wheels to hold a constant 70 mph. If you really found a way to save 5hp output from the engine, you would see a large decrease in fuel consumption. But it doesn't happen.

Hey Randall.5 hp was I believe based on the energy required to turn the fan ,probably at redline,,not belt difference if that's what you are referring to.
Interesting about the harmonics,and I have great respect for feed back from racers.
The moss kit has a dampened two piece,I believe with rubber in between crank pulley.Not sure how this is different from a typical harmonic balancer.
Tom

 

[TR3driver]

Hey Randall.5 hp was I believe based on the energy required to turn the fan ,probably at redline,,not belt difference if that's what you are referring to.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you said the narrow belt conversion was supposed to save 5 hp. My bad.

I personally don't believe that eliminating the stock TR3 fan makes that big a difference either; but I won't argue the point. If I ever get bored enough, I might actually try to measure it. My guess is that my little 1/4 hp bench grinder will have no trouble spinning it up past 5000 rpm.

The moss kit has a dampened two piece,I believe with rubber in between crank pulley.Not sure how this is different from a typical harmonic balancer.

In most cases, the term "balancer" is a misnomer. There are a few engines where there is actually an offset weight built into it, but in most cases it would more accurately be called a harmonic dampener, just like the Moss piece.

 

[Meyer'sTR3]

After all that, turns out is was simply the belt. I installed a new NAPA belt and no more screeching. Apparently what happened when I last installed a new belt and thought I solved the problem was the alternator fan that's right next to the alt pulley had been lightly making contact with the side of the belt and had slowly scraped the belt to the point where it became narrower and finally began to make this awful noise. The alternator did not line up with the water pump pulley so the belt kinda angled to close to the alt fan causing contact. When I installed the new alternator I could see that it didn't line up so I had to grind down a portion of the lower mounting hole so it would fit slightly closer towards the firewall allowing the belt clearance from the alt fan. Oh well, I have a fresh water pump in the car now anyway, and plus I have the experience of doing all the stuff now. That's why we got these cars isn't it? To spend half the time working on them? Isn't it? :apathy: