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LAW75

LAW75

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I would like to open a discussion of my dilemma. I have the hard copy PDF the Austin Healey Mechanical Service Parts List (the same as has been circulated on a searchable pdf) and the Workshop Manual (AH BJ8). All parts listed are identified with a "Part No." The word description is generic. By way of example, on page 84 of the Service Parts List shows item # 22 with a Part No. of 6K 499. The description provided is: "Gasket-cover to gearbox." But how would I find out the substance of that gasket?

I called Moss to find out if they have a conversion from the official part no. to a Moss part no. No, says Moss, nor are they aware one might exist.

So, by way of example, if I want to discover what the make-up is of a gasket (rubber, cork, paper, brass, etc.) I have no way of knowing the answer (unless you can help guide me further). Although a gasket is just one of many examples, there does not seem to be a way to actually view (color or further description) the actual part needed. This comes into play in many respects, gaskets not exclusive. As we know, some parts have been discontinued.

The workshop book does not add to the description of the part make up. So if I had to fabricate the item, how do I know its make up? Maybe a rivet has to be brass; the "pop" rivet issue on the trunk well; maybe a gasket has to be paper; maybe a plug has to be brass, etc., etc.

In my discussions with Moss, their tech person states that they will not guarantee whatever product they are selling is concours correct.
Does anyone have a solution to this?
 
The problem is when the book was written. It was not needed to know what a part was made from.
You just ordered the part, it came, you fitted it.
Some time during it's life it may have been superceded.
It is only now, some 50 years later you have people scratching there heads,
 
You need to buy the Concours Guidelines and the Austin Healey Restoration Guide by Anderson and Moment. Those two will give you the best collection of details regarding components.

Many products from Moss and others are not original in shape, size or material. Making your own won’t guarantee acceptability by the scrutineers.

Hardware is described by the factory part number. The number will tell you the type and size of fastener as well as the finish. You have to know how to read the part number. Head markings on the hardware is another story. Best to find original British hardware and have it replated the appropriate finish.

All that said, why are you making your own gaskets? That makes no sense to me.
 
Hey Legal Bill. Thanks for your response. FYI, I have read, worked with extensively and am fully knowledgeable re '22 Concours Guidelines re BJ8's. I also have read and fully knowledgeable re the Restoration Guide. The same re the Workshop Manuel. With various (limited) exceptions (such as indication a hose may need to be absent any writings or paint of an object needs to be semi gloss vs gloss, the red shroud next to the top of the radiator, etc...), none of the above references shed light on this dilemma. At the suggestion of John T, above, I have been going through the AH Spares web. That too, does not shed light on the parts composition (with the exception that there are reference materials for fasteners Parts Numbers for Healey Fasteners ). We have to trust that AH Spare's conclusion as to what their part is to replace vs the actual Healey part list. I called and asked if they would represent their parts are Concours Correct and they said they can not do so. Since the "fasteners" list needs to describe the composition of the fasteners (i.e. zinc, nickel, plain), that schedule is helpful to my plight.
So, all I have is that we have to ask a master restorer that has restored from what they understand and believe to be period correct cars. They learn from observation and doing. There just has to be a reference somewhere that can help all of us on this issue.
 
Well, I have come such a long way. Research. Research. Review. Understand, all the stuff referred to above to get to pure Concours. So, a good portion of my time in the past year was also talking with master restorers, which is like talking to encyclopedias. I was addressing this issue as a point for discussion for all those that are on the same path. The question was to obtain answers but also to caution those embarking on a Concours level.
 
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There are not many who are on that path. A good percentage of them just give their car to a restorer that has successfully created gold level Healeys in the past. Those who are trying to do this themselves often hire an experienced judge to take a look at the car and give them a punch list before submitting it to the concours committee.
The car looks great and you should be proud of the result, regardless of what the judges think.
 
You might reach out to David Nocks at BCS. He does concours restorations. Kurt Tanner Motorcars used to. He might be able to field your questions or point you in another direction.
 
Legal Bill said:
All that said, why are you making your own gaskets? That makes no sense to me.
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Bill, I've been working on my transmission for a while now. R&R parts, install the gaskets, test ride, take apart. Next morning I feel like it's "Groundhog Day". It makes sense to make your own gaskets when sometime the gasket you need is only available in a kit. You only need the one gasket. Or in my case, you need that one gasket many times. Make your own.
 
Mirror is an extension driven mirror used for "driving". For show/judging, In fact, you will also see side mirrors attached to my vent windows, which are taken off during judging situations. I have the original and I replace for same. As you know, EVEN the extension mirror (when top is down) does not help much. So for driving purposes, I researched a back up camera system that is wireless...no hook up to existing wires...On order and waiting to receive. It is battery powered (battery lasts 12+ hours and of course re-chargablble) and license plate mounted (therefore, easily removed without a trace for judging purposes). Will report back if it is satisfactory.

ps. I have spoken with a number of master restorers and they indicate there is no known material to give the complete info that is needed to be perfectly Concours. One gave an example of the oil pan. Now they make in aluminum. Concours is metal. BUT, no info that original was metal. Aluminum certainly existed in '66 and as part of our cars are aluminum, certainly so could the oil pan. As I envisioned, the restorers have had many original, original Healeys that they worked on and learned from observation. In fact, one such restorer has an unaltered original (driver) that he examines to answer some of my (and I am sure others) questions to assure Concours accurate info.
 
Law75, it is an interesting view point. I guess most of us go back to the time when the cars were new. We all know the engine covers and pans are steel. We know the thermostat housing is aluminum. We know the valve and tappet cover gaskets are cork and the oil pan and timing chain cover gaskets were cut from a heavy fiber sheet. Thermostat gaskets used to be cork, but now they are also heavy fiber. Do the judges ding you for that?

When I reassembled my car I used all the guidelines and parts books and Anderson-Moment to make sure I was getting it right. But I suppose I could be wrong on a number of things I thought were original. I know I made intentional choices along the way for materials that were absolutely not original based on my taste for appearance, quality and safety.

While I respect the concours crowd and the effort they put into their cars and the judging, I don’t really understand it or support it. The desire to keep the cars original and maintain the tradition of the Healey cars, the family and the factory isn’t a goal I share. And from a financial perspective, the effort to create a gold car no longer seems to be worth the high cost. The values of the production cars stopped rising some time ago and an argument can be made that the cars have dropped in value over the past 10 years. And I now see non-original cars bringing prices equal to the concours cars.
I’m at something of a crossroads myself. I’m either going to modify my car to make it more enjoyable to drive, or sell it in its present form and move on to other cars. Life is short.
 
Thanks for you thoughts Legal Bill. To help you "understand", at least from this writer's point of view, reaching the goal of a pure Concours is a personal achievement. It certainly is not (nor can it be) a financial motivation. It is not ego driven, either. Without fault to those who elect otherwise, the travel to Concours for me, is an "ultimate goal" that I choose to achieve. (no different then the 9 NYC Marathons I have run in the 80"/90's). If I were looking for maximizing my return on an investment in a Healey, I would: 1. change to chrome wire wheels, 2. rocker cover converted to shinny chrome, 3. replace carb/air filters with chrome filters, 4. leave the heat return pipe cooper color, 5. repaint the red shroud behind the radiator a smooth gloss red, 6. speaking of radiators, perhaps change to a chrome part (maybe??), 7. install a hidden cup holder under my dash. 8. convert electrical to neg ground and then, 9. switch from a generator to an alternator, 10. replace all lights (interior and exterior) with LED lights so one can actually see what is in front of them, 11. and a number of other items, as you say, "...to make it more enjoyable to drive..."
Lastly, I completely disagree with you that "values over the past 10 years..." have dropped. Nothing could be further from reality. Going back 5 or so years ago, a solid condition BJ8 was going for 35-40K (+-). The same conditioned car is easily selling for north of 65K and, if the BJ8 ('66-67) is a Concour winner (any level award) we are talking about 100-125K! I happen to have the Hagerty Price Guide (July-Dec. '22) right in front of me. For a '66 BJ8 (my car), they list the following values: #4=driver car. some visible flaws...Value to $30K. #3=same as #4 but to a lesser degree. some incorrect parts. considered in "Good" condition...Value to $46K. #2=would win a local regional show. considered "Excellent" condition....Value to $77K. #1. "Concours", yes, meaning above "Excellent"....Value to $126K!!!

I rest my case!
 
Legal Bill said:
Law75, it is an interesting view point. I guess most of us go back to the time when the cars were new. We all know the engine covers and pans are steel. We know the thermostat housing is aluminum. We know the valve and tappet cover gaskets are cork and the oil pan and timing chain cover gaskets were cut from a heavy fiber sheet. Thermostat gaskets used to be cork, but now they are also heavy fiber. Do the judges ding you for that?

When I reassembled my car I used all the guidelines and parts books and Anderson-Moment to make sure I was getting it right. But I suppose I could be wrong on a number of things I thought were original. I know I made intentional choices along the way for materials that were absolutely not original based on my taste for appearance, quality and safety.

While I respect the concours crowd and the effort they put into their cars and the judging, I don’t really understand it or support it. The desire to keep the cars original and maintain the tradition of the Healey cars, the family and the factory isn’t a goal I share. And from a financial perspective, the effort to create a gold car no longer seems to be worth the high cost. The values of the production cars stopped rising some time ago and an argument can be made that the cars have dropped in value over the past 10 years. And I now see non-original cars bringing prices equal to the concours cars.
I’m at something of a crossroads myself. I’m either going to modify my car to make it more enjoyable to drive, or sell it in its present form and move on to other cars. Life is short.
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I agree with your comments. I am restoring a BJ7 to original as possible with the parts available but concours is not my end game. I think the market has decreased for cars of this vintage as the market is with younger age groups looking for cars of the 70,s and 80,s . It certainly is easier to sell Healeys that have been updated with gearboxes etc. making them more enjoyable to drive. I appreciate that concours cars will live on to be conserved for the future . I have a Mark 2 Jaguar which was concours 10 years ago but with limited driving and time would not be classified as concours today. It all depends if we want to use the cars or just admire them. We are not here for a long time.
 
LAW75 said:
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My car is not, and could never be Concours correct. I knew it when I bought it. I appreciate those that strive for that goal. We have a fellow in our regional Club who restored his father's bugeye to gold level, and has the certificate and awards to show for it. It was done entirely for sentimental value, and money is/was not the goal.

With that, I assume there is a story of why a GB license plate on left-hand drive car. If it's a good story, make sure you let the judges know what it is.
 
Law75, I am glad you enjoy your quest. I understand people see it as a valuable exercise, I just don’t share that view or understand why others put themselves through it.

As to values, I disagree. On the Hagerty valuation guide, look at the graph and just click on 5Y or all tab. The graph will expand to show the values over five or six years. You will see the prices for all categories have remained the same or dropped. Mostly dropped. I also follow the live auctions and the sales on BaT. The graph on BaT goes back to 2015 with a useful volume of sales starting in 2017. A straight line best defines the values over time. 15 years ago gold level cars were auctioning well over $100K. A-H values topped out a long time ago.
 
grimes6 said:
I agree with your comments. I am restoring a BJ7 to original as possible with the parts available but concours is not my end game. I think the market has decreased for cars of this vintage as the market is with younger age groups looking for cars of the 70,s and 80,s . It certainly is easier to sell Healeys that have been updated with gearboxes etc. making them more enjoyable to drive. I appreciate that concours cars will live on to be conserved for the future . I have a Mark 2 Jaguar which was concours 10 years ago but with limited driving and time would not be classified as concours today. It all depends if we want to use the cars or just admire them. We are not here for a long time.
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Agreed! Going concours locks you into the original car. No improvements allowed. And when you are done, now what? Do you want to drive it? An original 1960s car isn’t all that pleasant to take on a long trip. And if you do use it, bye-bye concours condition.
 
Agree with everyone other then "value" conclusions and even BAT proves my point. I too look at BAT almost 2x daily. All, ALL the Healeys in auction in the past year were Healeys that needed different degrees of but mostly lots of work. A good example is the green BJ8 presently on auction. That car needs 15K of a new paint job. 5K of engine cleaning and painting. 2K+? of undercarriage work. G-d knows how much engine, etc work. Would categorize this one at a Haggerty "4+". Lets see how much it goes for.
If anyone disagrees, sell me a BJ8 Phase 2 at a Haggerty "3" or better for 40K!
Great discussion.
 
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