Tips needed on cutting out and replacing sills

[spiny]

Hi all,

I'm at the point where I'm ready to cut out and weld in new sills on my '72 midget and I'm after some tips or your experience.

heres a pic of the horror I'm dealing with:

before I start cutting, I'm going to have the car supported on four axle stands and support the transmission tunnel too, but the doors are shot so is it still worth sticking one back on to 'measure' the panel gaps, or should I hope that nothing moves too much when I remove the old sill? The floor is good, as are the crossmembers and I've repaired the inner arch already with everything in place.

basically I need a brief step by step on how to do this, should I carefully drill out the spot welds that I can see and chisel the rest or can I just chop the lot out bit by bit until it's all gone then offer up the new panels ?

I like in the U.K. so have the 'how to' in the old 'Pracical Classics' magazine to help a bit, but the articles were printed in 1984 (my dad bought the mags as he was planning on doing the work back then /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ) so the pictures are not exactly clear.

any pointers would be great, including things not to do too

cheers, Phil.

 

[regularman]

There are a lot of pics and things of it in the haynes midget restoration book. I did not have to cut mine out, so good luck with it. One thing that I have used on other cars that is relavitvely new is a very thin (maybe 1/16th or 1/8th inch) cutting wheel that goes on a 4 inch angle grinder and makes it a good cutter. This might save on some torching.

 

[GB1]

Phil

Drill out all the spot welds with about a 3/16th bit, then chisel them off (top and bottom). Cut the sill below the rear quarter and the a pillar since there are spot welds in there that you will not be able to get at (only cut the sill/ rocker do not cut any other panels. They can be removed after the sill is off.

I have done this several times without any problem of body warpage, but that all depends upon the condition of the rest of the car and what weight is supporting.

There are some real metal working experts on this forum who can help you alot more then me.

Patrick

After looking at the pics again, this how I have removed rockers, forunately I have only repaired the inner sills. One note is to get some good thick replacement panels, I have seen some real cheap ones including fiberglass rockers. I hope that this helps.

Patrick

 

[spiny]

thanks,

the panels I have are 'heritage' panels from Moss whcih are apparently good? well they are unquestionably miles better than the ill fitting nonsense I have to buy to repair the rust on my vw bus anyway /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

found a pic of the floor:

the floor is as far as I can tell, solid. the inner sill is holed in the driver footwell, but good all the way back - though the lower seatbelt mount is crusty and will need replacing too.

 

[spiny]

One thing that I have used on other cars that is relavitvely new is a very thin (maybe 1/16th or 1/8th inch) cutting wheel that goes on a 4 inch angle grinder and makes it a good cutter. This might save on some torching.

yeah, I have a stack of them, very useful /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[regularman]

Reminds me of my floor. The floor was solid but had a few holes which I welded 11 gauge plates over to make sure they would never return

 

[spiny]

Reminds me of my floor. The floor was solid but had a few holes which I welded 11 gauge plates over to make sure they would never return

I am surprised how thin the steel is on the floor, when removing the seats I noticed it flexing a bit - I assumed it would be holed and horrible, but no, it's just that thin!
the 'tear' around the captive nut for the seat runner is getting fixed right after the sill /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[regularman]

I was surprised how thin it was as well. I don't remember mini floorboards being that thin. I was thinking about replacing the floor pans but why replace it with the same thin metal? Mine had rusted mainly around the seat mounting holes, I wanted it thicker and stronger and it was cheaper and I don't like to torch metal if I don't have to. I feel that once metal has been torched, it loses something and is much more likely to rust.

 

[fmichaels]

let me start by saying that i did not replace the sills myself, but i was there enough to see most of the work.

make sure the tub is supported as much as possible to ensure it stays straight. do one sill at a time and take some initial measurements to make sure nothing has changed dramatically. take your time and check and recheck your measurements. my tub was actually welded to a frame meant to keep everything straight through the process.

hopefully you can still attach the doors since they are the best way to check the spacing of the door to the sill.

another thing to remember is that the replacement sill will probably be a slightly different fit than the original. my replacement sills came from VB and they were thinner in width than the originals. this lead to some fit problems where the sill sat in about 1/16" or so and the door fit was off. this part of the repair bothered me the most since i still have this problem and will probably have to have some body work done to make it all look clean. IMO body putty or anything like it is the worst thing to do to a rebuild, but if i can limit it then i can live with it.
.
from the pictures, i am not sure you won't have some other structural repair to do on the way to finishing the sills, but i'll keep my fingers crossed. good luck!

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Body filler should never be use to build an exterior corner. It simply has no strength and will chip off. So alignment of the corners and panel gaps is important.

 

[ChrisS]

IF the inner sill is staying in place then it will help support things but I would tack weld some light angle iron across the inside door opening to keep things lined up. Try to do it so you can test fit the door before you weld it out as a double check. I use a spot weld cutter, kind of like a small hole saw, and try to take the piece out in one piece. It can be a pain and if you tug and pull things can get out of line so take your time. Then grind down all but a few of spot weld centers that the cutter leaves behind, leave about a half dozen at random locations. The nice thing about taking the piece out in one piece is that you can lay it up against the remaining spot welds and make sure it all lines up still. Then grind the last spot welds down, fit the new sill, tack it, check the door fit, weld out the sill, and then remove the angle iron.

 

[fmichaels]

angle iron across the door openings ... brilliant!

 

[spritenut]

A good idea when replacing sills is to put the door on and weld it shut at the top. this will keep the body from flexing when you cut off the sill which is part of the frame of the car.
Do 1 side at a time.
I just finished a 58 and am starting on a 71. I just roll it on it's side prop it up with a stick and cut away.
If you don't want to weld the door, use a piece of angle iron across the top and bottom of the door hole before you cut the whole sill out.
Make sure it lines up with the rear wheel curve and front fender lines before you weld in the new one.

 

[spiny]

nice one guys, angle iron accross the door gap it is then /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I will take more photos as I progress, I'm sure I'll be back for more help shortly /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]
from the pictures, i am not sure you won't have some other structural repair to do on the way to finishing the sills, but i'll keep my fingers crossed. good luck!
[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure you're right, there are some inner sill areas that need cutting out and fresh metal let in, but on the whole it seems that most of the panel is good. the 'floor' where the front of the rear leaf spring mounts is also missing around the chunky bolts, so that will also need a repair while the sill is off. I have the end piece closing panels too, and lots of sheet steel to play with, so hopefully it's just a matter of time,

thanks.

 

[racingenglishcars]

Judging from the picture at the top, the inner sill is completely gone. If you are working with a rusty inner panel, there will be problems welding to it and the parts not replaced will rust through in a few years. I would figure on replacing it all at one time. You will have a nicer job when done.

Otherwise, do exactly as written above. Bars across the doors and support the body where the wheels support it. It's good to have the car up on it's side to help with cutting and welding. Definately use a drill on all spot welds and a very thin chisel to separate the panels. You can weld on the new panels through the holes that you just made and they will look good.

 

[jlaird]

Floors are not thin. That is old age, double up on em or replace. I just added an alum plate on the inside.

 

[spiny]

Floors are not thin. That is old age, double up on em or replace. I just added an alum plate on the inside.

Well, it had factory paint on both sides ?

Though I'm used to VW steel, which on my van is a bit more sunstantial, though I guess the midget wasn't designed to carry a two ton load /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[racingenglishcars]

I'm not sure of the original specs, but I just measured some non-rusted original BE metal at 0.037" - 28 gauge.
Typical rust repairs here are done with 1mm plate - 0.039"

 

[Trevor Jessie]

0.037" wouldn't that be close to 20 Gauge sheet steel?

 

[spiny]

well, I started /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

no going back now. I decided on the 'brace the door with angle' approach, and the car is on stands on the chassis, not the suspention. the middle bit of the inner sill is in quite reasonable conditio - most of it even has paint! the ends are obviously shot, but looks easy enough to patch once it's all cleaned up.