Stuck Engine. Help!!!

[angelfj1]

:frown:
First of all, please excuse the long post. I know there is an answer out there, so I tried to be as descriptive as possible.

We have encountered a strange situation with the engine in my project 3A. We began the restoration of this car, TS58476LO in November 2001. During the summer of 2002, the original engine, TS58681E was completely rebuilt. Just in case questions arise as you read about my dilemma , as finished at that point in 2002, the engine included everything but intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, valve gear, and fuel pump. The block and cylinder head, sump and timing chain were painted with epoxy high-gloss paint. The flywheel and clutch were attached. All openings were sealed and the entire engine was bagged in plastic with lots of desiccant. It has been in dry storage for almost six years with the original assembly lubricant and sump completely filled with 30W oil since then. To my knowledge, up until last week the engine was never "turned over" manually or by starter since the rebuild.

Fast forward to last week, the current state of the restoration is a completely restored body shell mounted on the completed rolling chassis, including front and rear suspension, engine, clutch, O/D transmission, prop shaft, differential, brakes, fuel and brake lines, wheels, tires, etc. The "engine" now includes intake and exhaust manifolds but no distributor, fuel pump, carburetors or valve gear. Last week the refurbished starter was installed and the engine was cranked very briefly – mainly to test the starter, and the engine did rotate several times. We stopped only because the battery was flat so we put it on charge overnight.

The following morning I added the valve gear and was preparing to adjust the valves. The plan was to rotate the engine through the transmission by using a large socket and breaker bar and to rotate the nut on the transmission output flange, with the transmission engaged in 4th gear. Before proceeding, I lubricated the engine by using a long extension and a cordless drill to spin the oil pump through the hole in the distributor pedestal. After a few seconds we had good oil pressure and the top of the cylinder head was flooded. We knew that the oil gallery was full and that the mains oil ways and bearings had lubrication. Attaching the socket and breaker bar to the transmission output flange nut we tried to rotate the engine. We were only able to turn the engine (verified by watching the crankshaft pulley) about 30 degrees before encountering a large resistance. When we tried to increase the force applied, all we accomplished was to slip the O/D brake.

At first we thought there was a problem with the starter/ring gear. Removal of the starter revealed nothing obvious. No obstructions could be seen. With the starter removed we tried again to rotate the engine with no luck – got the same resistance at exactly the same point in rotation.

We then suspected a problem in the transmission. We rigged up a manual lever since the clutch slave/master cylinders are not yet connected and we wanted to avoid removing the transmission if possible. With this lever attached to the clutch cross-shaft arm we were able to operate the clutch and effectively disconnect the transmission from the engine. With the clutch disengaged we were able to select all 4 forward gears and reverse and rotate the output flange. There was no obvious binding or unusual noise from the transmission or O/D. We believe that this exercise has eliminated the transmission as the cause of resistance.

We returned our focus to the engine. We had a theory that after the successful rotation (with starter) last week that most of the assembly oil had been scraped off of the cylinder walls, thus possibly causing the unusual resistance. We also felt that we needed a better method of applying more torque to the crankshaft than what could be transferred through the transmission/OD. One concern we had was where best to apply torque to the crankshaft. We were concerned about using the fan hub extension for fear of shearing the woodruff keys. We decided to use an old 4-jaw lathe chuck and grasp the front of the crankshaft bolt. We applied penetrating oil to each cylinder through the spark plug hole and left the engine overnight.

In the morning (yesterday) we applied torque to the front of the engine (crankshaft bolt / 4-jaw chuck) – no luck – at least we did not feel comfortable applying more force through a longer lever-arm. What to do next? We decided to drop the oil pan and possibly remove the timing chain cover. This was to be done today and I am waiting for a call from the shop with a report of what they found.

This has me very frustrated. How/why did the engine turn over last week with the starter and now we seem to be stuck?

Let's face it. This is a 4 cylinder, wet liner tractor engine. How more basic can you get?

If you have encountered such a problem and/or have any suggestions I really would appreciate hearing from you!

Sincerely,

Frank

 

[martx-5]

:frown:
... Last week the refurbished starter was installed and the engine was cranked very briefly – mainly to test the starter, and the engine did rotate several times. We stopped only because the battery was flat so we put it on charge overnight. ...

Why, after you charged the battery, aren't you using the starter motor to turn over the engine?? You never mentioned if you tried this or not.

If you have the plugs out of the engine, you should be able to turn it with the fan. A little tough to get to on a TR3, but I've done it alot of times. After I got done with my engine rebuild, I could turn it over easily with a wrench on the crank bolt.

Sorry I don't have an answer, but like you say, this is boiler plate technology. The only thing you changed it seems is that you added the rocker arms. Perhaps a valve is hitting the piston. Pull off the rocker assembly, make sure all of the valves are in the up position, and see if it turns easy.

 

[angelfj1]

:frown:
... Last week the refurbished starter was installed and the engine was cranked very briefly – mainly to test the starter, and the engine did rotate several times. We stopped only because the battery was flat so we put it on charge overnight. ...

Why, after you charged the battery, aren't you using the starter motor to turn over the engine?? You never mentioned if you tried this or not.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Sorry, I forgot to mention. We did that and stalled the starter.</span></span>

If you have the plugs out of the engine, you should be able to turn it with the fan. A little tough to get to on a TR3, but I've done it alot of times. After I got done with my engine rebuild, I could turn it over easily with a wrench on the crank bolt.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Plugs are out and have been out. Valve gear is off. All valves seated. Still stuck.</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Art: this is really bizarre, but thanks you for taking the time to respond.</span></span>

Sorry I don't have an answer, but like you say, this is boiler plate technology. The only thing you changed it seems is that you added the rocker arms. Perhaps a valve is hitting the piston. Pull off the rocker assembly, make sure all of the valves are in the up position, and see if it turns easy.

 

[Jon80spit]

Obviously there are a lot of things that can cause your problem. My 80 spitfire's engine stuck solid as it was idling. I also thought first of the starter. Turned out the forward thrust bearing slipped out and jammed between the crank and the bearing cap. Was easy to see once the pan was dropped. Was also easy to fix. If the engine was running fast, the bearing probably would have ground up, causing more damage.
Drop the pan and use a block of wood to rock the crank to see where the problem is. If it is a piston, you should have a tiny bit of play. Mine did not.

 

[MGTF1250Dave]

Aloha Frank,

I observed a similar problem at a club tech session last month. We were trying to start a AH 3000 MK I after it had been idle for a few years. The engine ran before it was pulled and the car began a major resto mod. Initially the starter cranked the engine over, but slowly. A weak battery was suspected, so another battery was connect but then the starter would not turn the engine at all. The spark plugs were removed and still no moment, next turning the rear wheels was tried without success. Since the drive train was installed and wheels were on the car, it was put on the ground and pushed with the car in 4th gear. The engine would not turn initially but by rocking the car back and forth it was freed up. Apparently having sat idle for so long and perhaps some surface rust needed a lot of power get things moving again. The starter motor not turning the engine over was also due to a poor ground from the engine to the frame. With that fixed the starter got the engine turning again.

It took a few more days to start the engine, because the in ital ignition timing was set wrong, but it eventually started.

To be safe, I would agree with Martx-5 that a quick inspection of the lower crank case would be good idea to avoid possible engine damage.

 

[Don Elliott]

Frank - Take out the plugs and try again. If one or more of the cylinders is full of water (anti-freeze), then this will not compress and the engine will not turn. It will seem rock solid. With the plugs out, the liquid will spurt out the spark plug hole or holes. If none comes out, then I suppose it's someone else's guess.

 

[angelfj1]

Thanks Jon. That's the next step.

 

[angelfj1]

Frank - Take out the plugs and try again. If one or more of the cylinders is full of water (anti-freeze), then this will not compress and the engine will not turn. It will seem rock solid. With the plugs out, the liquid will spurt out the spark plug hole or holes. If none comes out, then I suppose it's someone else's guess.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Sorry Don, I should have mentioned that this engine has never been filled with anti-freeze. Thanks for the suggestion though!</span></span>

 

[Brosky]

The old "Hydro-Static Lock Up Trick" is quite possible.

 

[RonMacPherson]

Like they say, next step is to remove the plugs and see if it cranks over. If so, find out what was in the cylinders, fuel, water???

If still locks up, then next step is to remove the pushrods, taking the valve train out of the engine equation and crank over(with the plugs removed)

 

[angelfj1]

The old "Hydro-Static Lock Up Trick" is quite possible.

Paul: is this possible even if the engine has never been filled with coolant?

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Frank -

My experience with the TR3 I restored several years ago: I didn't want to do the engine myself, so I had it rebuilt by a very competent mechanic in Nashville. He always used the same machine shop to do his work, and sent the crank, rods, etc. to clean up and balance. In the past they had never shot-peened any of his stuff, but this time they did. However they didn't notify him of what they had done, so he cleaned the parts up as usual and assembled the engine.

I installed it, and turned it over a few times to check pressure, etc. When I went to start it, it locked up. Some of the "b-b's" had found a nest in the crank oil passages, and when the oil pressure forced them out, they locked against the bearings. Glad I wasn't around to hear the conversation between the mechanic and the machine shop!

Hope yours isn't a similar issue...

Mickey

 

[DougF]

I have seen two cases where the crank wasn't properly flushed out prior to installation and a metal shaving was pushed through a journal into a bearing and locked both motors up solid.

 

[2wrench]

Not being the sophisticated mechanic, what jumps out at me is the fact
it seemed to turn over, albeit not a lot, but it seemed to turn over....
then you say:

"The following morning I added the valve gear and was preparing to adjust the valves."

From that point you seem to describe trouble. I am wondering if something is
going on within the valve gear you installed. Can the valve gear stuff somehow lock up an engine, gentlemen?

Just reasoning and guessing at possibilities. I hope you find it soon and that it's not a big deal.

 

[eschneider]

Question - you said it rotates about 30 degrees before it hits resistance. Does it rotate back from that resistance with relative ease? In other words, are you hitting a "Stop", or is it "stuck"?

Is the resistance encountered with 2 pistons at TDC, or at some random height in the cylinders?

 

[angelfj1]

Oh my!!!! I hope its not that.

 

[angelfj1]

2wrench:

Let me clarify.

As soon as the resistance was noticed we removed the rocker gear and that bit has been off since.

We did try the starter with and without the rocker gear and stalled the motor with a fresh battery and charger/booster unit.

Neither the distributor nor fuel pump are attached at this time - in other words, nothing is being driven off of the camshaft.

The resistance that we notice is not abrupt. It is more like a build up followed by a solid stop. We can rotate clockwise perhaps one-eigth turn then build-up in resistance. At that point we can reverse direction and rotate anti-clockwise the same distance.


I hope this sheds light on the problem I really appreciate your insight. Thanks

 

[angelfj1]

eschneider:

As soon as the resistance was noticed we removed the rocker gear and that bit has been off since.

We did try the starter with and without the rocker gear and stalled the motor with a fresh battery and charger/booster unit.

Neither the distributor nor fuel pump are attached at this time - in other words, nothing is being driven off of the camshaft.

The resistance that we notice is not abrupt. It is more like a build up followed by a solid stop. We can rotate clockwise perhaps one-eigth turn then build-up in resistance. At that point we can reverse direction and rotate anti-clockwise the same distance.


<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"Is the resistance encountered with 2 pistons at TDC, or at some random height in the cylinders?"</span></span>

I don't know the relationship between the pistons, but I will check. Can you explain why this is important?

Many thanks, fja

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Get on with it, pull the head to inspect the cylinder bore for rust, if not there, drop the pan and check the bearings. Otherwise, even if you get it to turn over, you will always be wondering about what was wrong.

 

[angelfj1]

I tend to agree.