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Removing Stub Axle from Vertical link

MrAlex

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I am replacing the front stub axle on my TR4 (outer bearing race spun - P.O. problem). I have tried some mild persuasion to get the axle out of the verticle link but it does not budge. It is a tapered fit (yes - I removed the back nut). Does anyone know if this should be pressed out or if heat helps or any suggestions. Thanks.
 

PeterK

Yoda
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A press is usually required but I found a post from Randall in 2003 on another list where he states

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]I made up a sort-of puller to remove the stub axles on my TR3A, from a big socket and a pipe nipple as I recall. Slid the whole mess over the stub axle and then used a Grade 5 nut on the outer threads to force the axle out of the link. Of course, if you have no threads, this method may not work
for you <g> [/QUOTE]

Sounds like it is worth a try unless you have a 30 ton press in your shop.
 

Andrew Mace

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I have gotten these stub axles out by removing the caliper but leaving everything else -- including the wheel -- bolted up and on the car. While a "second operator" pulls mightily on the wheel, you loosen the nut just a bit and whack away with the proverbial big hammer.... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer.gif
 

TR6oldtimer

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Take it to a shop and have it pressed out. A lot cheaper then the $200 plus dollars for a new one, or all the time spent finding a use link...
 

TR3driver

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All I can say is that the method PeterK quoted worked for me, without even removing the links from the car. Didn't damage anything, even the spindles could have been reused ... they're still in my parts box as emergency spares.

BTW, it's not a press fit, but rather a locking taper, similar to tie rod ends and ball joints (and rear hubs).
 

bobh

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The fit is similar to a morse taper on tooling. I hesitated to use the term because it is not as familiar as press. However the proper method of removal is still a press.
Trying to avoid either the effort, the expense or both when dealing with a job such as this can cause collaterial damage. Why compromise when the correct method is readily available at a resonable price?

This reminds me of a question posed by a coworker. "What is the benefit of changing the oil?"
 

TR3driver

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bobh said:
Trying to avoid either the effort, the expense or both when dealing with a job such as this can cause collaterial damage.
I guess it's all in your point of view. Some people like to only drive their cars and have them serviced only by factory-trained mechanics ... others like to work on their own cars. I fall in the latter category.

Sure, you can screw it up and damage something ... but the same thing can be said for having to completely tear down the front suspension so you can take the vertical link assy to a shop.

BTW, the factory manual doesn't mention a hydraulic press, so I'm not sure you can call using one the "right" method. But obviously, there's more than one way to skin a stub axle.
 

TR3driver

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bobh said:
This reminds me of a question posed by a coworker. "What is the benefit of changing the oil?"
Under some circumstances, there may not be one. Ever read "Drive Them til They Drop" (or something like that)?
The author's premise was that the absolute cheapest way to own a car was to buy an ugly old clunker that basically ran (passed tests like hot start, cold start, etc.) then spend absolutely nothing on maintenance (except for free items like air and water). Eventually it will stop running, whereupon you sell it (there are always people willing to buy such cars and fix them); then buy another one.

Not my cup o'tea (owned my last new car for almost 25 years and kind of wish I hadn't got rid of it when I did); but an interesting thought anyway.
 

jsneddon

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I had one break off at the thread and took the wheel and half of a caliper off with it. So the "Randall" method would not have done any good anyway. We applied some heat with a cheap-o Bernz-o-matic and whacked the living daylights out of it with a BFH. Alternating heat and spraying it with liquid wrench (back in the day before PB Blaster) and after about an hour of choice swearing it finally broke loose. V-Link was unscathed.

This all done because a) i was a cheap high-school student and b) I fix it all myself. In retrospect I should have gone and got it pressed out anyway because all the balls were shot. But with a zero-dollar budget and the need for an immediate fix to the problem at hand it is what I did. Drove it a good year with wonky ball-joints and a hap-hazard steering input in a straight line.

But hey... that's me. To each his own....

And when I got tired of winters in a car with no top or side curtains I purchased a long line of disposable cars that I drove until they died. My philosophy was drive it until the part you need costs more than 75 bucks and pick one with a bulletproof engine.... hence Dodge Darts, Toyota Celicas, anything with a 305.... Beaters for Point A to Point B. TR's for fun.

Plus I never have to worry about the wife leaving me with an empty gas tank- she refuses to drive any of my commuters.
 

bobh

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Randal,
I did not say the entire job had to be farmed out to factory-trained mechanics.
I did not say you needed a hydraulic press.
I do service and repair my own cars. Have done so for 35+ years. I am also confident in my abilities to correctly disassemble the suspension as required to properly remove a stub axle.
As I have discussed in previous posts. I weigh the cost of the tool against the cost of having the work done in a shop. In this case buying a press versus paying a shop to press out the axle.

Yes I read the book. The premise of the book is stated in the title. You missed the point of the book if all you learned from reading it is the author's ideas on the cheapest way to own a car.
A more accurate summary may be: He explained that there is a break in period, followed by a period of virtually no wear, followed by a period of rapid deterioration. His advice focused on extending the period of virtually no wear for as long as possible.

I don't understand the reluctance to spend $25 or $50 to have a shop perform a task. It's not like you are stranded in a lunar crater 5 miles from the landing craft with only 3 minutes of air remaining.

Jim,
I went through the same trials and tribulations as a kid driving british cars. No money, must fix the car to get to work...

A friend recently told me about a dirt bike he owned when he was a kid. When he wanted to raise the compression. He "Shaved" the head with a belt sander.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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bobh said:
I did not say ...
Neither did I.
bobh said:
I did not say you needed a hydraulic press.
Your local shop has an arbor press ?
bobh said:
I am also confident in my abilities to correctly disassemble the suspension as required to properly remove a stub axle.
But not your ability to fabricate and use a simple puller ?
bobh said:
In this case buying a press versus paying a shop to press out the axle.
Which was my point, a press is neither required nor factory-recommended to remove the axle.
It should actually come out easier with a puller, since the axle will elongate and lose diameter (very slghtly) under tension from the puller; but contract and swell under pressure from a press.
bobh said:
Yes I read the book. The premise of the book is stated in the title. You missed the point of the book if all you learned from reading it is the author's ideas on the cheapest way to own a car.
Well, make up your mind. Are you arguing that the point is to "Drive them til they drop" or not ?
bobh said:
His advice focused on extending the period of virtually no wear for as long as possible.
Somehow, I doubt never changing the oil, or antifreeze, or indeed any preventative maintenance that cost money; is targeted at "extending the period of virtually no wear". Maybe you read a different book than I did.
bobh said:
I don't understand the reluctance to spend $25 or $50 to have a shop perform a task.
You forgot spending most of a day to R&R the vertical links. For what a day of my professional time is worth, it would make more financial sense to take the whole car to a mechanic and let him screw it up. I'd rather do it myself /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
bobh said:
It's not like you are stranded in a lunar crater 5 miles from the landing craft with only 3 minutes of air remaining.
True. But starting the job on Saturday afternoon (when the machine shops are typically closed for the weekend) and wanting to drive the car to work on Monday comes close enough that I can't understand why you are advocating throwing away a day's labor and $50 on such a simple task.
bobh said:
A friend recently told me about a dirt bike he owned when he was a kid. When he wanted to raise the compression. He "Shaved" the head with a belt sander.
Did it work ?

BTW ... if you're afraid of breaking a taper, how do you get the tie rod ends off ? Unscrew the tie rod ? The stub axle is just another taper, about the same size as the #3 Morse on my lathe. Thank goodness I don't have to take it to a shop every time I need to change the center !

I've said enough ... if you want to take your axles to a shop, by all means do so. I'll do my own, thank you.
 

TR4nut

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All right, enough bickering.

I changed out the stub axle on mine, because I needed to replace a bent vertical link.

Tried to do it myself with some gentle persuasion on the stub axle and couldn't get it off. (didn't try the puller method - that would have likely worked).

Drove it 2 miles over to the local garage, counter guy strikes up a conversation with me on old cars, grabs the offending link, 5 minutes later the stub is pressed off the link - and doesn't cost me a dime, including the cup of coffee I had in the waiting room.

You can pick your method of choice, but I'll go back to that shop again when I need to!

Randy
 
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MrAlex

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Well.. I had the vertical link out anyway so I took it to a shop to press it out. It did require significant force to get the axle out so I am not sure it would have come out any other way in this case. Thanks for all the advice and opinions. Nothing is black and white on these which just adds to the fun.. It is nice to know all options. Thanks again.. now on to reaming trunion bushings..
 

bobh

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Randal,
You need medication.

BTW: The Bentley manual says to press the stub axle out of the vertical link.

BTWII: The axle will not elongate in the area of the taper. If it elongates at all it will be at the smallest diameter.

BTWIII: Your lathe has a built in method for removing the center

BTWIV: (The finale)
"it would make more financial sense to take the whole car to a mechanic and let him screw it up. I'd rather do it myself"
After reading your rant I believe you are perfectly capable of screwing it up yourself.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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bobh said:
After reading your rant I believe you are perfectly capable of screwing it up yourself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

After some 35 years of TR ownership, and over 200,000 miles on the same TR3A, doing all my own work, I believe it too !

PS, you're still wrong.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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MrAlex said:
now on to reaming trunion bushings..

Well, I could tell you how I did my own, using a $15 reamer from Enco ...
but I'm sure our anonymous friend from Alabama would tell me how it's ridiculous not to pay someone else to do it /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 

TR4nut

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Well, I did try to get the bickering to stop!

But on to the bushings - I bought the same said $15 reamer from Enco from an earlier recommendation from Randall on team.net (thank you!). Enco is a great source.

To start a little debate though(different from this one), for the home hobbiest like myself if I were to do it again I would buy an adjustable reamer and very slowly ream out to get a final fit. The fixed reamer worked, but I didn't have the best set up and wound up with a little more play than I would have liked.

Actually, for my next time around I'm going to try out RevingtonTR's oilite bearings which don't require reaming. They were pretty cheap, and hopefully they wear well.

Cheers,
Randy
 

Andrew Mace

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bobh said:
...The Bentley manual says to press the stub axle out of the vertical link....
Manuals have lots of advice, most of it very, very good. But those same manuals talk of Lucas Beamsetters for aligning headlamps and a host of special Churchill tools that, while likely making the job easier, are expensive if available at all and probably never would be used more than once by the average owner/mechanic. That's why Haynes and other manuals occasionally are useful in their suggestions of alternative methods and tools.

A very good friend of mine, an excellent mechanic, often quotes his late father (a long-time VW mechanic, first with a dealer in the 1950s and 1960s and then the owner of an independent repair shop) as saying to prospective employees: "If you can't improvise, I can't use you!" Frankly, I've long since come to believe that there's a bit of McGuyver in any truly good mechanic.

Sure, there are jobs that pretty much REQUIRE specialized tools, if only to avoid certain damage to or outright destruction of the part(s) being worked on. An excellent example is a proper rear hub puller for most Triumphs. But that's not to say one can't come with a homemade tool that will perform the same function as the expensive and scarce Churchill puller.

Bottom line (for me): engineers and metallurgists and others can argue theories forever. What I enjoy about this forum, the Team.Net and other mailing lists, and many clubs I've belonged to and other owners I've met, is that there are so many people willing to share their experience and knowledge with others. If a suggestion is hideously, dangerously wrong (uh, I've always used a small dab of plastic explosive to remove the crank pulley....), fine: SAY SO! But please, kids, let's not get into hair-pulling and name-calling.

OK? /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer.gif
 

YankeeTR

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Okay...I'll get in this mess but only to make a comment.

Back in the 1950's a hydraulic press was a rare and unusual item for most shops to have. The service station I worked at beginning in 1963 was as well equipped as any new car dealer. We rebuilt our own starters and generators including machining the armatures, we relined our own brake shoes and clutch discs, rebuilt clutch pressure plates (using a mechanical press), did engine-in-the-car crankshaft grinding and cylinder boring etc.

But we didn't have a hydraulic press. We sent all of our axle bearing work, etc. to the local machine shop down the street.

My point is the shop manual would tell the mechanic to use the factory-authorized/supplied tools. Most TR dealers would have bought the factory service tools and used them for repairs. A hydraulic press was a major $$$ investment not often seen.
 
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