poor fit door / swage lineup

[tonyk]

Hi. Long time no post been progressing slowly with frequent interruptions.

There is a problem I don't know what to do about. Briefly the car is disassembled to the "tub", stripped down and I,
've been going round dealing with patchy rust (non-lethal variety) and minor bodges. Much rust penetration was hidden under ancient asphalt type underseal - I think not deliberately. After removal, relevant to the current problem, affecting the lower flanges of the inner and intermediate sill. The outer sill (rocker) was intact but tatty. Spot welds had separated along the lower edge with thinning and corrosion of the margin., mainly from hinge post to the rear dogleg. Outriggers were intact but welds to the sill were horrible. Repairs had been done(!) in the past, possibly 70's or 80's with oxy scarring, solid enough but I have tried to get a timeline with no documentation that old.

Anyway, this is a common topic on this site so I won't labour the details. On the left side at present and have re placed the toeboards, straightened and rewelded the inner footwell panel, partial rear quarter panel repair etc. I found that a PO had "fixed" a rotten intermediate sill by sticking another on top. Also had to cut out and replace, what would nowadays be called bodged, repairs in the wheelwell and straighten up as best I can.. It was all a bit of a mess. Sills above the flanges, ie the box section, were good, welds to the outriggers also good I put a brace in and remove the rocker and intermediate sill. Didn't move the inner sill box (perfect , it had been treated with some kind of paint in the past).Found that the original intermediate sill was reduced to paper thin and all this was attached to the lower A and B pillars which had broken away slightly.

It was clear that the hinge pillar had been worked on with the pillar brace held on with lots of pop rivets. Lots of rivets along the edge of the hinge pillar which was also solidly welded. It looked as if someone had been attacking the inner footwell with a hammer. I couldn't say whether the hinge pillar had actually been moved removed or replaced but some repair has been done. The door lined up perfectly to the front and rear shrouds with good even gaps front back and below The rear section of the swage line was low door to rear wing. Apart from rewelding the lower section of the hinge pillar to the sill I did not move the angle or orientation of the hinge pillar. The B pillar area had been similarly crudely worked on. These bits have been repaired, rewelded as necessary,

A long winded background. On replacing the front wing and door, these continue to line up with the front swage perfect and wings to door lines uninterrupted. Door gaps not final yet but will fit at standard 3/16ths or so, no problem here. However, the rear swage door to wing is 3/8th low on the door side, much the same as before but more noticeable. I've pushed on the wing and pulled up the door hinges with little effect. In addition, whch I have not seen on the forum during searches, test fitting the rocker, shows that it is also 3/8ths low. This means that the aluminium door trim won't fit and the door won't close It is also the same 3/8ths too high and doesnj't reach the sill surface.

I did some measurements, guidance only.

Inner sill to floor - 3" as standard.
Inner sill to rocker surface - 3" front, 4" rear. R side is standard 2 7/8th front, 3 3/8ths rear (cf with J. Loftus measurements in a previous post).
Vertical shroud to sill - front L 19 3/4" rear L 17 1/2". R front 20 1/4" rear 17 1/4" Bit low L front but ? relevant.

This may have been noticed at previous repairs and whoever it was has done what he could. I can't think that these discrepancies are of factory vintage, despite the tolerances inherently allowed in the 60's and the notorious "Friday afternoon cars".

Big question is, while the car is apart is there anything to be done? BTW the car is straight, no signs of crash repair.

I thought about cutting out the hinge pillar, lifting it and rewelding but that would throw the door top out of alignment, the rear wing lines up with the original bolt holes so I'm assuming this is original. I'm not sure that lowering the rear wing would help alone. Also it would throw the fixed front wing/ shroud edge out of line.

I'm replacing the lower door section due penetrating rust holes. Could I shorten the door with the repair panel? Is that a good idea?

If so the swage line can be adjusted with filler or panel adhesive? Saw this in another post.

It seems to me that the base cause is the hinge pillar set too low.

Anyway, any suggestions welcome. This is driving me bonkers.

 

[GregW]

I thought about cutting out the hinge pillar, lifting it and rewelding but that would throw the door top out of alignment,

Maybe not lifting, but changing the angle of the hinge pillar is what is called for. If you moved the lower section of the pillar aft, that would raise the rear of the door to line up with the rear shroud. That would also shrink the gap to the top door/front fender and widen the gap at the lower door/front fender. At that point, loosening the front fender and lowering it at the front should balance out the front fender/door gap. We are talking about a small angle change on the pillar to raise the rear of the door 3/8". The front fender would only need to be dropped about an 1/8" since it is much longer than the door.

You could try a spacer underneath the lower hinge to see how much that lifts the door. If you wanted to redo the pillar welds, that would give you a physical measurement to work with.

 

[Brinkerhoff]

Don't cut up the door until you have the rest squared away. It might not matter much but all the little changes cause secondary problems. Trial fit all the threshold trim before you call it good.

 

[Brinkerhoff]

As long as you are starting with a good fitting front shroud in the proper position , the rest builds off that.

 

[tonyk]

Hi. Thanks for the replies.

To GregW I'll try the lower hinge shims tomorrow, but the door gaps are good as is. throwing them out would lead to secondary effects as you describe. There is play in fitment of front and rear wings as I have not drilled any new bolt holes yet - using clamps for positioning. However, this alone would not address the outer sill problem.

To Brinkerhoff The shroud fits well matching up with all screwholes without forcing. The bonnet (hood) sits well and symmetrically in its grooves. Alignment with the chassis rail tabs is also spot on. I'll leave the door till last as it's a reference for the outer sill level.

I measured the height top A pillar to inner sill surface L 19 1/8th, R 19 3/4. The A pillar sits lower under the top rear of the front wing. It must have been replaced / repaired incorrectly in the past. It does seem to be the root of the problem.

However, I forgot to mention that there has been previous surgery to the original rear wing (small patches of original paint colour under the spire nuts) with a (nicely done) MIG weld scar running diagonally well above the swage line from the wheelarch margin to the B pillar flange. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a vague memory of an extended repair panel being available from Kilmartin in the past?. I also noted that the "dimple" in the curved margin of the B pillar is in the correct position but is lower than the current swage crease. Maybe the front of the wing was replaced incorrectly. That would bring up another option, ie to cut through the wing above the swage, lower it and weld in a patch. There are curved surfaces here and it may very well be above my pay grade to try this.

 

[vette]

Tony, try to verify that your hinge, (A) pillar is in the right place, hasn't been moved or defected into a wrong angle. If the hinge pillar is where it belongs basically you will hang the door and build everythiing else too that. If your door hangs and has reasonable matchup to the front shroud and rear fender then use it that way and build everything else to it. I think you where saying that you think the door is too low and that the rocker will not mate up well to the inner sill because it then will be too low. BUT! if your rocker lines up pretty well at the bottom of the front and rear fenders then that's ok. I have seen where an inner sill is extended alittle if the rocker seems alittle low and the rocker lower flange won't mate up to the inner sill well. After that, if the only issue is then that the swage line on the rear fender is too high for the door, then fill the rear fender swage line with SEMS #39347 bonding adhesive and sand/carve to suit. this is done many times on Corvettes to line up their body lines. Good Luck, Dave.

 

[tonyk]

Hi vette. It was your previous post I was referring to re panel adhesive. Didn't see it on a re-search (seem to get different results every time I search a topic). One point, the TDS on the panel adhesive I have warns against "ghosting" being a problem after joining visible panels. Have you noticed this I would have thought a skim of filler would cover it?

The A pillar has been redone at some time and the brace was attached with pop rivets only. But whoever did it did a good job of lining things up, except for the low positioning.
I may not be the first to come across this - there are a couple of flat spots at the lower rear edge of the front wing which were covered by a thin layer of filler beneath the paint but above the tough (factory?) primer, it occurred to me that they could have been due to mallet blows - ?due to a previous repairers frustration!

No, the problem is that the horizontal aluminium trim piece will not reach the rocker and thus the door won't close. I'm not bothered about the rocker level as such and I've already welded in a long double thickness 1/2" extension at the lower margin of the sill flange so that the rocker and wings will mate up. When I looked at the old tatty aluminium trim piece it had been battered into submission and reshaped.

BTW the adhesive I have is called Pliogrip. Comes in a standard 195ml caulk type cartridge with mixer nozzle. It's a light brown colour. No need for an expensive 3M type gun

 

[vette]

Tony, I have never had a problem with the 'Ghosting' you mentioned. There are times that I have used body filler after the adhesive and there are times that I have not. If at times there was an irregular edge on the adhesive I would use filler to smooth. In any situation you will sand the adhesive to a feather edge just as you would any filler. Then the most significant is that you will prime with a high quality primer. sometimes I may seal the whole area or the whole car with an Epoxy Sealer. But that is not always necessary and if you use a Epoxy and let it dry for days or more, it is rather hard to sand. But sanding it is what I do because I don't like to rely on a sealer coat then going directly to colour because I don't want to rely on my spraying ability to get the sealer smooth. So I let it dry and sand it a week later. I always prime with a 2k urethane primer. that is what I want on the car before I paint colour. I is a good build primer and sands easily. You will build this up and sand multiple times to block out the surface before colour coat. If this is done I don't think you will have any ghosting issues. I'm not familiar with Pliogrip. I use the SEMs line of adhesives which are a twin tube canister that needs the special twin piston gun and the mixing nozzle. I has become quite expensive. The last adhesive canister I bought just 2 weeks ago cost about $46.oo. But I don't want to mess around with any other product I don't know and I don't really need it that often. i'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the horizontal
aluminum trip piece. Are you saying that the rocker is too wide and the aluminum piece does not fit all the way back to the inner sill?

 

[tonyk]

Hi. Think I got the swage crease sorted. Followed variations on advice given above.

Having already cut through the large holes in the brace they had sprung open, being under some tension. Clamped the top and rewelded. Left the bottom open and rewelded. OK only a fraction difference but the same effect as a 1mm or so shim. Drilled the bolt holes to allow the screws to max out to the top of the plate retainer cages ( reinforced cages so there is a limit). Result is virtually no step in the door rear / wing. It was possible to pull the dogleg down but this flattened the curve and it didn't match up with the door. The rear of the door only sticks up above the rear wing by a fraction - should be covered by trim pieces.

I've been trying the outer sill and see it can be adjusted by altering the angle where it abuts the vertical surface. This will allow some more movement upwards. I believe fettling (good Middle English word that) is common practice on these cars and MGs etc.
May still have to shorten the door bottom.

Vette thanks for the advice re filling and sanding around adhesive filler.

Back to the fray tomorrow.