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Pertronix ignition and static timing

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RyanH

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I've recently installed a pertronix ignition on my '79 MGB replacing the lucas electronic ignition with the external amplifier. I had to remove my distributor to install the kit. I haven't been able to get the car to start after reinstalling it. The car ran great prior to this. In the process of trying to get the car to start, I'm afraid I screwed up the timing and I need to set the static timing to get it started. I've heard that it is difficult and nearly impossible to static time with the pertronix ignitions. Has anyone had similar experiences? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

RyanH
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Hi Ryan,

First of all, welcome to the forum. Be sure to post a picture of your car when you get a chance.

On to your problem: I installed the Pertronix ignition on my 78 B without any “real” problems. However there are a couple of possibilities that would account for the trouble you are having.

First of all: Are you still using the “external amplifier” with the Ignitor? If so – go ahead and disconnect it and run the two wires (Black & Red) directly to your coil. Paying close attention to the proper (+/-) polarity. I still have my old amplifier mounted in my car, but it is not connected to anything and the leads are tie-rapped back out of the way. This way I could always convert back if I wish to.

Another possibility for the trouble you are having is that the timing could be way, WAY off. Like you – my car didn’t turn over the first time. You will need to find #1 TDC and align the distributor accordingly. This is kind of a royal pain in the B**. The other way to find TDC is to loosen the distributor so it moves freely. Then have a “good & trustworthy” friend turn over the car while you adjust the distributor back and fourth until it kicks over. Don’t be too concerned if you have to move the distributor a lot before it catches & turns over. I think that my dizzy needed to be turned about 60 to 70 degrees form its original location. Once you’ve done this you can set your timing using a timing light.

Word of caution: Be sure to check you service loop inside the distributor. Too much and you run the risk of snagging the wires on the spinning parts. Too little and you could throw off your timing as the engine revs up. What I did was leave the grommet loose and had that close friend of mine rev up the engine and marked wire under full advance with a sharpie marker. This is about the best way to make sure your service loop is set correctly.

Good luck!
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[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: Bret ]</p>
 
Bret,

Thanks for the welcome. I forgot to mention it was my first post to the forum. There seems to be quite a few knowledgeable folks here.

I completely disconnected my amplifier so I don't think that is the culprit. I think my timing is just WAY off.

By the way, I have 3 marks on my pully wheel. Two notched grooves and one white liquid paper type marking. You're right, I've had a heck of a time finding TDC so far...Another aproach I've heard of is to remove the valve cover and check the valves...not sure if I want to do this. Having that trustworthy friend to turn the engine over while I plug the #1 cylinder with my thumb isn't the most accurate method either.

As for the service loop...the way the new ignition sits in the distributor, there isn't quite a "loop" per se. I'm using a lucas 45DM dizzy, which sounds like you have the same type.

I'll get some pics sent shortly.

Ryan
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jusrt curious ....what is so hard about finding top dead center on a B...?

Mark

[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: SilentUnicorn ]</p>
 
Well, for one...I've never done this before so I'm learning as I go, that is why I'm here..to seek help and learn. Two, I don't have much confidence in the grooves on the pulley. There's one that looks like the original factory mark, however I don't know if the engine has been rebuilt, etc. Bottom line is, I've tried that and it hasn't worked yet.

Ryan
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Since you don't know which mark is correct you need to take the valve cover off. Take the plugs out, and put her in 4th gear. Now push the car slowly and watch the rear rockers. When the both are moving. One up and one down. That's called rocking the rockers. Roll the car back and forth ever so slightly till the last two rockers are rocking. At that point #1 is on TDC at the compression stroke. Look at your pully and that your timing mark. Now put your distributor in and note where the rotor is pointing. If it is factory it will be pointed at 1 o'clock.
 
Tom , you just made night into Day for me. i see the light
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thanx

Ryanh i am also asking because i dont know ...and bret said it was tuff...makes me wonder what special problems are assoc. with B's
 
This topic couldn't have come up at a better time. Thanks Tom for the info. Like Ryan, I just installed the Ignitor in a 45D dizzy on my 66 B. The car was running fine before the install but won't start now. It turns over but just doesn't fire up. I've been trying to find TDC for a week now. I heard that instead of rocking the car back and forth you can lift the rear wheel(s) off the ground and spin one of the tires to accomplish the same result. Is this true?

JimC
66 MGB
73 Midget
 
Jim,

I went to Sears and invested in a 1 5/16" wrench to turn the engine by hand. Well worth it, in my humble opinion.

Ryan
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I have a 1 5/16 wrench also Ryan. Can't seem to find enough room past the fan to use it from on top. Ryan, I installed the Ignitor in my 73 Midget and it fired right up, with very little adjustment needed. I thought the B would be just as easy an install. I don't know how similar your distributor is to mine but if they are the same, what did you do with the little black wire inside the distributor? There was no mention of it in the installation instructions and no provision provided for reattaching it to the mounting plate.

Tom, I pulled the plugs, took off the valve cover and put the car in neutral, I was going to watch the action of the rockers. That's when I noticed that one of the clips (Moss calls it a Cotter Clip) is missing. I searched around the valve springs and even down along the pushrods but I didn't find it. Two questions: Will the missing clip interfear with the setting of the timing and will it have any affect on a valve adjustment. I guess I should ask a third question---anyone know where I can get a replacement clip. Moss lists them in their catalog and on there web site but they don't sell them. Go figure. I've been driving the car for about a year and never knew this clip was missing. What's keeping the valve springs in place? Is this a situation that should keep me from firing up the motor? What do you all think?
 
Cotterpins are alt your local parts storee. In fact, you should probably buy a little kit of them!! The worry that i would have is where it went to. It probably just dropped to the bottom of the pan, because the last guy never bent it right!! Anyway, in pulling and replacing the distributer, it is real easy. The distributer only goes in one way, so you can't go wrong!! Just watch where the rotor is pointing when you pull it out, and also pay attention to where the vaccum advance is pointing and put it back in the same place!! JUST DO NOT TURN YOUR ENGINE OVER WITH THE DISTRIBUTER OUT!! and it will go back exactly as it came out!! A lot of guys pull their distributer just to work on the point!! Good luck guys!!!!
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Jim,

Not sure about the black wire in the distributor. I have a lucas 45DM type (electronic/no condenser or points, etc) with the external amplifier with no internal wiring other than the two wires from the amplifier. Looking in the Victoria British catalog, it looks like the standard ignitions have a wire for the condenser. Of course, you want to take the condenser out when you install the ignitor.

Ryan
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Tom,

Thanks for the help...I finally got her to start!! We're making progress.

Here's what I did...removed the valve cover per your instructions and found TDC. Aligned my distributor accordingly and turned the key..no start. So I gradually advanced the distributor until she cranked over. Ran really rough so I stopped in fear of damaging the engine. Not quite sure if I got it right.

By the way..the engine must have been rebuilt at one time because the TDC mark is obviously not a factory etch.

Ryan
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SilentUnicorn:
Tom , you just made night into Day for me. i see the light
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thanx

Ryanh i am also asking because i dont know ...and bret said it was tuff...makes me wonder what special problems are assoc. with B's<hr></blockquote>

Hmmm? Admittedly I’ve never tried to do this Toms way with fourth gear. I always removed the valve cover and turned the engine using a large socket & a breaker bar.

However, I think that rotating the dizzy is much easier. Mater-a-fact I’ve actually done this by myself. Rotated the distributor a few degrees then turned tried to start the engine. If it failed to start I’d continue rotating the distributor in 5 or 10 dig increments until it kicked over. Assuming that there isn’t anything else wrong (i.e. the car ran before you started) then this procedure should never take more than three or four tries for it to kick over.

This always got me to get in the ballpark to allow the engine to run smooth enough at an idle for me continue with the adjustments in the manual.

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Gary, that was Cotter Clip not Cotterpin. I think I've found it listed in the Victoria British catalog. Of course VB uses a different name for the clip then Moss does--Moss calls it a Cotter Clip and VB calls it a Retaining Clip--I'm just going to call it a valve spring retaining clip.

Anyone in the I-15 area between Escondido and Lake Elsinore, CA need any small parts from VB? I hate the thought of paying $6.00 to ship a $.74 part. If interested contact me at klutterbutt92530@yahoo.com; I'll place the order on Monday.
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by klutterbutt:

Two questions: Will the missing clip interfear with the setting of the timing and will it have any affect on a valve adjustment, What's keeping the valve springs in place? Is this a situation that should keep me from firing up the motor? What do you all think?<hr></blockquote>

KB,
At this time there is very little keeping the valve spring in place. I know that you have been lucky so far but, you stand a very good chance of swallowing a valve & wrecking the whole engine if you continue to run it. Replacing the missing spring cotter, clip, what ever you want to call it, is not going to be easy. The single remaining clip is bound up in the round retainer & this is all that is really keeping the valve from dropping into the engine.

You will have to hold the piston at TDC, the underside of the valve up against it's seat, & compress the valve spring from the top enough to get the missing clip installed.

One way to do this is to turn the crankshaft so that the piston is down, feed in about four feet of small diameter nylon rope through the sparkplug hole, & turn the crank to bring the rope gob up against the bottom of the valves. You will have to hold the rope up with rotating pressure on the crankshaft. Then rig up some kind of valve spring compressor, compress the spring & install the clip. As I said, the remaining clip is bound in the retainer & may take a lot of pressure to compress the valve spring. Maybe even a hammer impact to break it loose.

If you have not done this before I would advise taking it to a mechanic for the "operation"
D
 
Sorry buddy!! I was thinking about the cotter pin at the end of the rocker shaft!! Anyway, want me to mail you one?? It would probably get there in about 2 or 3 days!!
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OH!!! I agree totally with Dave!! I still wonder where it went!!
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[ 09-06-2003: Message edited by: Gary Lloyd ]</p>
 
I'm not convenced the clip is needed on the valve keepers. The later models don't have them and the Nissan motor that uses the same type of head and early valve doesn't use the either. The upward pressure of the valve spring and the tapered fit keeps it in place. It probably is at the bottom of your oil pan. I wouldn't worry about it because the pick up screen on the oil pump will keep it from going anywhere. The reason I suggested he do the roll through thing was to find the correct mark on his crank pully,and to make sure he had the firing order right. You said it still runs rough. Make sure you have the wires right and #2&#3 right. It's real common to get those backwards. It 1342 turning counter clockwise.
 
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