TR4/4A old gas after sitting for a few years TR4a

[Richard_Brown]

Well My TR4a just arrived in Seattle after being shipped from Missouri. I had recently posted about carb rebuilding and posted a place I found that does them for about $250.00.
Well to my surprise the carbs look to me like they had been professionally rebuilt recently. They are clean and shiney and I can see bright new gaskets all around them. So My question is, and my guess is, the Gas smells very sweet and not like gas at all. any ideas as to why it would smell like this?it was run about 2 years ago. My last TR4a had sat for 10, and I started it with the gas that was still in the tank.

 

[Steve]

Do they use that reformulated gas in Missouri? The gas that is mixed with either ethanol or methanol (depending on the octane) will smell sweeter than regular gas, but has a much shorter shelf life. It can gum up the jets on the carbs.

 

[frankenstang57]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gifIf I were you, I'd ditch the old gas and throw in some new for good measure. Especially if it smells funny. If the gas is anything like the crap found out here in Colorado you'll be better off. You should be good to go from there.

 

[Paulus]

I probably do not want to admit it, but I've started a car on 2 year old gas, started Ok but ran a little poor until I'd used it up!
Question! Are we going to see your "4A" at the ATDI in Oregon 2006?
Paulus.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif

 

[billspit]

You don't want to run a car on old gas unless absolutely necessary. It can cause a valve to stick. Old gas smells like varnish. If it smells otherwise, the owner may have put something else in it. Watch out for the DPO.

 

[Don Elliott]

If there is only a gallon of the old gas, you could fill up the tank with new gas and dilute the old gas. If more than a gallon, drain the tank and start over with new gas.

 

[Richard_Brown]

ah! Billspit, you got it. I could not figuyre out the smell but have smelled it before , Its a Varnish like smell. I also thought that some type of gas treatment could have been put in it.
He could not get it to run, and gave me about 1K off what he was asking, It will be great if the gas is the problem and the carbs have been recently rebuilt.

 

[dklawson]

I would siphon out the old gas and put it (one gallon at a time) into your daily driver to burn it up diluted with new gas. With the TR4 tank empty, put in some fresh gas and make sure it will pump to the carbs and that the filters and pump aren't gummed up. Once you know that fuel will move to the front, make sure the carbs aren't glued shut. I recently went to start the GT6 after it had been sitting for six months. Unfortunately the gas was even older than that. My float valves had stuck shut forcing me to drop the bowls on the Strombergs to clean them (and the float valves) out.

 

[MDCanaday]

I swear that this is a true story. I had some stale gas that I had drained and being cheap(arnt we all?) put it in the lawn mower.It never finished that lawn, the valves stuck so badly that there was zero compression left. After a rebuild, I drained and desposed of the "fuel".
My advise, get rid of stale fuel or regret it latter.
MD(mad dog)

 

[sammyb]

It's actually really easy to drain the tank, (I did it last week to my newest TR3.) So just get that old gas out of there.

By the way, the oxygenated gas in Seattle, especially the stuff at Safeway/Costco etc... starts deteriorating within two weeks. Luckily, only a small number of areas use reformulated/oxygenated gas. Down here in Olympia, we have non-reformulated, but the discount gas still begins its decline in a month.

 

[billspit]

I really think you should pull the tank and look inside. Don't know squat about a TR4A but would think it wouldn't be too hard. I'll bet the tank also has some rust or gas crud (the varnish)in it. It would be a good time to clean and etch the tank with a weak acid. I did that to my Spit years ago and have had no problems (with the tank that is).

BTW... I would never put old gas in a new car to dispose of it. If you want to have an absolutley miserable day, try to use a chain saw or weed eater with stale gas. It doesn't take long for this new style gas to go stale.

 

[dklawson]

Well, regardless of how you dispose of the old gas I think everyone agrees to get it out of the tank.

However, I'm not suggesting that you put the old gas in a new car without diluting it. One gallon of old gas mixed with 10 to 20 gallons of new gas will still burn fairly well. Interesting incident with the lawnmower though. But again, a lawnmower has a relatively small tank and the percentage of old fuel compared to new must have been pretty large.

I remember a couple of years ago watching a news story filmed in a small engine repair shop. From what I remember, the issue was the interaction of the oxygenated fuels with the 2-stroke oil. Apparently the fuel additive caused the oil to separate out or loose its lubricity. After oxygenated fuel (I think it was with MTBE, not ethanol) was introduced there was a flood of repairs requested for all kinds of 2-cycle engines in our area.

 

[Tomster]

Agreed with ALL the above comments on the gas to varnish cycle.
I pulled my tank had it flushed, steamed and recoated. Then steamed and dried all the fuel lines to the carbs and everything was fine and no worries to boot! Cost was about $100.00 Canadian (About $80.00 US)

 

[Richard_Brown]

I never buy cheap gas, after noticing how a tank effects a new car I just don't do it, besides I was recently in a BP refinery and asked about their fuel and he said I would not want it if he gave it to me, of course he saw I was driving a Landrover so I guessing he made a judgement call. They sell to Arco and many other stations like the 7 11's etc.

 

[vettedog72]

Are different brands of gasoline differnt or is the the additive that is different?

 

[Guest]

The gasoline base stocks are similar from vendor to vendor I believe, it's the additive packages that are different from brand to brand (detergents, octane enhancers, etc,). I used to run a test in my lab called GRO, gasoline range organics. I used to work in environmental testing and did alot of work for yank a tank remediation and monitoring. Basically, anywhere that you have an underground storage tank for fuels the site needs to have monitoring wells drilled and these wells need to be sampled for ground water and that water analyzed for the presence of the fuel, which would indicate a leaking tank. Anyway, when I was doing the gasoline work one of the major difference I noticed was that Amoco gas always had a much higher concentration of isooctane in it than the other major brands. I was told by one of our research chemists that Amoco used isooctane as an octane enhancer while most other brands just bump the level of toluene to accomplish this. I don't know how accurate that reason is, but it was just something that I observed while doing this analysis. The value of using isooctane over higher toluene levels could be argued I'm sure. Toluene is much cheaper, that seems like a good reason why most vendors would use it. I don't know if using isooctane has a performance advantage that would warrant the extra cost, but I know most octane boosters you buy in an auto parts store are isooctane based.

Here in NJ we use the reformulated fuels in the winter, the gas is bumped with a higher level of MTBE. I think they are considering pulling fuels spiked with higher levels of MTBE though, it is a highly water soluble compound and can get into groundwater easily.

My neighbor brought over his lawn mower last year for me to look at, he couldn't get it started. He had a lawn service doing his grass for many years and decided getting rid of that was a good way to cut costs. Unfortunately, his mower had sat with gas in it for 4 years. I had to pull the tank and clean it, as well as the line and take the little carb apart and clean that out. The varnish had hardened into a yellowish mess.

 

[jayhawk]

I worked on and bought/resold tons of Johnson and Evinrude outboard motors in the past decates. Many, many of them wouldn't run because old gas was left in them for 6 mos to 20 years.. Some were simple to clean out some created major problems with carburetor passages, low and high speed mixture and float needles. For those in those in which the fuel would still flow freely after an initial priming,(usually 6 mos or less, like every year with my sister's lawn mower) draining existing gas (including float bowl), and adding modern gas with its additives would eventually clear them up without much prob.

 

[Richard_Brown]

OK, so what do you use to clean the tank?
I did notice some small amount of rusty looking stuff, so I guess I should pull the tank.
as well as take off the glass bowel on the fuel pump and try to blow out the fuel lines.

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi,

The TR4A gas tank is pretty easy to remove. Just a few bolts, the filler hose on the top and one hose on the bottom. There is no vent line. The vent is integral with the filler cap.

There is probably a drain, opposite side from the outlet hose, but I seriously doubt you'll get the plug out of it. Most are soldily rusted in place and I wouldn't try to hard to remove it. Note: All the fittings on TR fuel tanks are soldered in place. Don't torque heavily on them trying to loosen something or you'll end up with a much bigger repair job. (Don't ask me how I know that!)

I'd suggest pulling the rubber hose from under the tank and draining all that old fuel out of the entire system. Also look at the condition of the rubber hoses themselves. Modern fuels can wreak havoc inside older rubber hoses, causing all sorts of "mystery" problems with the carbs. Bits of rubber hose can end up working through the system. It's possible the diaphragm in the fuel pump, if an original style one is fitted, is due for replacement too.

Gas tanks can be given a new lease on life by using one of the repair kits commonly available (www.eastwoodco.com is one source). These involve three parts: a cleaner/rust remover used first, a metal prep that's sloshed around inside the tank after that, then a sealer coating which can actually solve pinhole leak problems and helps prevent new rust from forming.

I've heard from various sources the cleaning and prep are very important, so that the sealer coating sticks well to the inside of the tank well. Otherwise, bits of it can get into the fuel lines and eventually the carbs, causing problems. Doing a tank restoration like this allows putting off buying a new tank for 5 or 10 years.

Another "trick" I've heard is to drop a length of chain into the tank and rattle it around until your arms are tired. It will knock loose surface rust. But, a good cleaning is needed afterward, and depending upon how rusty the tank is, it might then need the cleaning/prep/sealing done.

As to different brands of gas, Chevron does have a high detergent formulation that helps keep carbs and fuel injectors clean. I try to use a tank of it every so often, rather than buy a separate fuel system cleaner additive. At least here in Calif., I see Shell offering something similar.

Here Chevron tacks on about 20-25 cents a gallon for the "good stuff". The 24 gal. tank in the Land Rover only sees it every once in a while!

Have fun tinkering!

Cheers!

 

[Richard_Brown]

So what should one expect to pay a radiator shop to do a tank boil? I just called one here in Seattle and it could end up in the $160.00 range? seemed a bit high to me but it did sound like they do quite a bit to it.