TR4/4A Odd Commission Number

[jrvalente]

I am looking to purchase a 1967 TR4A IRS that I found. The problem is the Commission Plate on teh car has a Commission number of CFC700711. First - according to everything I read all TR4A's start with CT and the a C if it is IRS. There are no CFC's. Also the Body color and Trim are spelled out as Blue and White - which I think they should be 2 letter/number codes. Anyone have any input to this or is it a total fraud?

 

[charleyf]

I believe that you are correct about the commission number. It should be CTC for an IRS car. According to Moss Motors the last 4A was number 78684. That is then followed by an "L". It sounds like somebody tried to copy the original commission plate and did not do a good job of reading the original plate.
Of course the commission plate is not the only number on the car. The next easiest one to look for is the engine number. It is not usually recorded on registration documents but would be shown on a British Heritage Certificate. It should Also be a number fairly close to the commission number. But then it is easy to change out an engine. So that only helps to confirm the closeness of a commission number.
Charley

 

[Geo Hahn]

Would also be a good idea to have a look at the title.

The good news is that Arizona no longer requires a notarized title and doesn't even want to see the car. I bought a car from out of state and the seller overnighted the title to me. I had registration and plates in hand (and insurance in force) before the car arrived.

On my TR4 the title had the wrong VIN (the 'L' had been interpreted as a '1') and AZ MVD was good enough to correct the VIN on the title they issued and even moved the year from 1965 to the year of manufacture 1964. But that sort of accommodation probably depends on who you get and what mood they're in.

 

[Vila]

Yes it sounds like it could be fraud, but if you do decide to buy the car you could first get in touch with the police or the AZ MVD and see what they have to say. If you buy it I would also get in touch with the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust (BMIHT) and tell them you are interested in getting a Heritage Certificate for the car, but there is an issue with the Commission Number. I believe they can research a Triumph with the Body or Engine number, if the engine is in fact original to the car.

 

[jrvalente]

The odd thing is the picture of the title sent to me by a car inspector shows that Commission number on the Title. I am thinking like charleyf said above someone tried to copy it and did a bad job of it making the T an F and the L a 1 - however if I read the research correctly on the internet the L stands for Left Hand Drive. which would be correct for the vehicle. The question is if they were copying the plate why didn't they use the correct codes for Paint -56 for Royal Blue and for the Trim. Instead they put Blue and White - which white trim was not an option - only black and midnight blue. I also noted that this is most likely a copy of the original plate as the plate says "The Standard Triumph Motor Co Ltd" instead of "The Standard Motor Co Ltd."

 

[Geo Hahn]

...I also noted that this is most likely a copy of the original plate as the plate says "The Standard Triumph Motor Co Ltd" instead of "The Standard Motor Co Ltd."

I believe "The Standard Triumph Motor Co Ltd" is correct for a 4A. But I think you are right that it is a copy.

Possibly more a case of sloppy practice than fraud - this isn't a million dollar Ferrari after all.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Do you have a decent photo of the Commission Number plate that you could post? That might help a lot!

 

[sail]

I believe "The Standard Triumph Motor Co Ltd" is correct for a 4A.

All I got was a plate looking like it was done after a couple pints:

Good luck with the DMV. I can't think of a time I've had all they have wanted but after a trip to the parking lot I usually manage to come up with it.

 

[HerronScott]

Here are pictures of an original TR4A commission plate (with paint!) and a reproduction. Note that the reproductions aren't totally accurate as they have "Coventry, England." instead of just "Coventry" on the bottom line plus the difference already noted between "The Standard Triumph Motor Co Ltd" versus "The Standard Motor Co Ltd".





Scott

 

[JerryVV]

There actually is another interior color with the Royal Blue and it's RED I have one as original and as Scott has shown below he also has one and it's only 23 cars older than mine. I believe Scott has changed his interior to a blue one. None of the "experts" acknowledge the RED interior, however. I do have a Heritage Certificate showing it's correct for my TR4A.

The odd thing is the picture of the title sent to me by a car inspector shows that Commission number on the Title. I am thinking like charleyf said above someone tried to copy it and did ay bad job of it making the T an F and the L a 1 - however if I read the research correctly on the internet the L stands for Left Hand Drive. which would be correct for the vehicle. The question is if they were copying the plate why didn't they use the correct codes for Paint -56 for Royal Blue and for the Trim. Instead they put Blue and White - which white trim was not an option - only black and midnight blue. I also noted that this is most likely a copy of the original plate as the plate says "The Standard Triumph Motor Co Ltd" instead of "The Standard Motor Co Ltd."

 

[HerronScott]

There actually is another interior color with the Royal Blue and it's RED I have one as original and as Scott has shown below he also has one and it's only 23 cars older than mine. I believe Scott has changed his interior to a blue one. None of the "experts" acknowledge the RED interior, however. I do have a Heritage Certificate showing it's correct for my TR4A.

Jerry,

Right, we know of at least 2 Royal Blue with Matador Red interior TR4A's both with Heritage certificates (and I still have the original commission plate as well).

Scott

 

[JerryVV]

Scott, will you be going to the FOT vintage races at Summit Point in May? I'll be there.
JVV

 

[TR3driver]

ISTR reading somewhere that the factory would make any combination, if a customer was willing to pay for it.

 

[JerryVV]

I've heard that too, but the fact that these 2 cars are only 27 numbers suggests they did a run of this combination. I did see photos of one in sad shape in NH several years ago so that would make 3. Unfortunately I've loss that contact and never got a Commission Number. I also saw reference to a 67 but that may have been a restoration and the olors changed. Scott changed his to a blue interior at some point.

 

[jrvalente]

I wanted to thank everyone who responded to this post. I managed to get all the documentation and the British Heritage Certificate proving the Commission number that was on the car was a misprint when they redid the commission plate sometime in the past. I brought all this to Arizona MVD and they gave me a correct title with the correct Commission number for the car and correct year (it was titled as a 67 but in reality the BHC stated it was manufactured in June of 66).

Now I need to restamp a blank commission plate so I can replace the old one. Arizona MVD gave me a new VIN plate that they put on the drivers side door jamb. Any suggestions on stamping (size of die and font) would be helpful.

 

[charleyf]

My TR4 commission plate had 1/8 inch block letters/numbers.
Charley

 

[Geo Hahn]

There is a current thread about stamping the plate:

https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcf/showthread.php?100316-Stamping-Numbers-on-a-Commision-Plate