TR2/3/3A leak proofing intake/exhaust manifold

[Jim Lee]

I noticed a pretty bad exhaust leak on my tr3 and
have ordered a new pair of gaskets. Can anyone give me
hints or tips on the best way to install them to avoid
exhaust leaks? One big question has to do with evening out
torque settings on the bolts. I cannot get on any of the bolts
with other than an open ended wrench so how do you
evenly tighten them? I do have what I think are called 'crows feet' that allow you to put an open end wrench on the end of an extension. Have you all found this necessary or are you able to do it by feel from the inside out?

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[charleyf]

Jim,

I may not be a good one to answer as I have never had a problem with an exhaust leak. I have always been able to get them down tight enough . Do you have a longer open end wrench? This will give you more torque if this is what you feel is the problem. I just went out and checked on my TR4 ( same engine) and was able to use a 3/8" socket with a short extension on all 4 upper nuts. You can add a short piece of pipe for even more torque. But before yo do that youshould know that the 3/8" bolts only require 22-28 lbs. of torque. You should be able to get that much even with a 10" handle on your tool. I am sure that I can do the same with the lower two without the extension. I would also suggest that you run a straight edge on the face of the manifold. If you are starting with a bad surface a gasket will not be able to compensate and close it off. Also make sure that your bridge pieces fit under the nuts on your manifolds fit well. I have seen some that were very worn down or the manifold surface was worn away.
Charley

 

[TR3driver]

I would go a step farther, since you have had problems in the past. Remove the studs (& pins if you can) from the head and rub a flat "machinist" file around to pick up any high spots. Continue until the file has exposed fresh metal everywhere. Not at all unusual for the surface to be distorted, especially around the stud holes. Also repeat the process on the manifold faces.

Also check that the pins fit easily into the holes in the intake manifold. Sometimes the holes get buggered up until they can hold the manifold away from the head. Loosen the nuts that hold the manifolds together while reinstalling (I just broke the studs off and left them that way, as heating the intake manifold reduces power).

The original tall steel nuts seem to work better for me, but check to be certain that they will spin easily all the way down each stud. If the nut binds about 2/3 down the threads, the stud is distorted and should be replaced. All new lockwashers, of course. I added heavy flat washers (aka setup washers) to the outermost studs, between the lockwasher and manifold. They seem to help keep the joint tight. Make sure the bridge pieces are turned so that the tips engage the dimples for them.

Nuts don't have to be extra tight (I believe the factory spec was 22-24, rather than 22-28. Although there is a service note that says 22-44, I feel it is clearly a misprint.) But, they do have to stay tight. Recheck them after the engine has been warmed up and let cool once, then again after 500 miles. Keep checking often until they are always tight.

I was able to tighten the nuts with a swivel socket, but a short open end wrench will work as well (which is what I used before I discovered swivel sockets).

 

[Jim Lee]

"Thanks very much TR3 Driver.

A couple (maybe more) questions on your post.

* What are these washers and are they available at a big box or Ace Hardware?
"I added heavy flat washers (aka setup washers)"

*I did not know that you could remove the pins. How is that done?

* What exactly is a machinist file? I do have a flat metal file that is relatively fine but is this machinist file
differrent?

* I have two studs that have the nuts fused on to them. For example the stud came
out with the nut. No way for me to get them off
without ruining the stud. I assume that I should replace these.

* I was not able to get a socket on the top nuts. The lower ones that are
hidden by the manifold I can get a socket on. I will use my open ended
9/16ths and be real careful. 20lbs is not alot of torque.

* I am assuming that it would be a bad idea to use any gasket sealer goop.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee

 

[TR3driver]

* What are these washers and are they available at a big box or Ace Hardware?
"I added heavy flat washers (aka setup washers)"

I doubt it, but I haven't looked. I get mine at McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/?m=true#setup-washers/=olkcri

*I did not know that you could remove the pins. How is that done?

Grab them with vice-grips, twist & pull. But not worth mangling them, so don't go overboard. If you can't get them out, then just work the file up next to them.

* What exactly is a machinist file? I do have a flat metal file that is relatively fine but is this machinist file
differrent?

A machinist file is rectangular, all 4 sides are straight. Usually, one edge is left smooth. MMC calls them "rectangular hand files" https://www.mcmaster.com/?m=true#machinists'-files/=olkez9

* I have two studs that have the nuts fused on to them. For example the stud came
out with the nut. No way for me to get them off

There are some tricks you can use, but replacing them is probably the simplest solution. If you want to try, though, take an ordinary nut that will fit the head side of the stud, and cut through one corner with a Dremel and a cutoff blade. You wind up with a nut that is basically C-shaped. Then thread the nut onto the stud, and clamp the nut firmly in the vise with the cut away from the jaws (so the force of the vise closes the cut). Odds are that you can now just remove the original nut with a wrench; and the split nut will come off easily once you release the vice jaws.

* I am assuming that it would be a bad idea to use any gasket sealer goop.

I don't know that it is a bad idea; only that I have never found that it helps. If everything else is right, the gasket will seal and last pretty much forever (until the next time you have a manifold off). If something isn't right, goop won't help. But there might well be a range in between where it does help, I just haven't found it.

 

[mgedit]

I believe I read somewhere about some of the current gaskets not being of very good quality. Some people have used double gaskets I believe, and there may be sources of "better" gaskets. I recently had to replace my gaskets to solve an intake leak, and as Randall outlined I trued up the manifolds before reinstalling with new gaskets. Cheers, Mike

 

[CJD]

While the studs are off, be sure to look them over and chase the threads with a good die. The threads can get real dirty, just below where the nut stops, so you are torquing against the dirt on the stud, instead of the mainfolds. You think you are at the correct torque, but the manifold is still loose underneath.

 

[TR3driver]

Looks like Remflex still offers their graphite gaskets, which some of the racers seem to like:
https://catalog.remflex.com/TRIUMPH_Exhaust_Gasket_p/20-001.htm

I have also been known to cut my own from "high temp" gasket material when I was in a hurry. Worked fine, only downside was that they tore in half the next time I had a manifold off.

 

[Jim Lee]

Help! I need somebody to commiserate with

Fellow Tr'ers let it be known that I am absolutely in a state of severe flummox.
I have replaced my manifold gaskets and I am seeing as much
exhaust leakage as I saw before I replaced it. The car
has not been driven in a while but I know that I was
not seeing smoke like I am seeing now come out of it
It is as if substantial pieces of the exhaust manifold
itself were missing. I looked very carefully at both
manifolds when I had them apart and they looked absolutely
fine. No warpage, flat on both ends that count.

There is a lot of rust on the exhaust manifold but
that is nothing new at all. That is one heavy duty
piece of metal. I have a hard time thinking that there
is something missing from there.

It takes a few seconds but as soon as it gets to
a certain temperature I get the exhaust poring
out. I have videos that I am going to try to
upload to Google Share so that you can actually
see my smoke screen maker.

Any thoughts or ideas would be most welcome.
As soon as it cools down I am going to check
the nuts that I was so careful to torque.
I am as sure as I can be that the things
that I use with the bolts to torque down
the bottom of the exhaust manifold are
in there correctly. I see smoke coming from
various places though so even if there was a problem
there I would think it would be pretty clear that
that is where the problem is.

When I get a good link for you all to see the sad videos
I will post again.

Thanks very much,

Jim Lee

 

[CJD]

Start it from cold and immediately run your hand around the manifolds. You will be able to feel a leak, unless it is directly under it. I guess it's more than just oil burn off?

Also a long shot, but are you sure the manifold fits the engine...low or high port?

 

[poolboy]

You say you see smoke ? I wonder why that is. That might be more serious than the leaky exhaust.

 

[Jim Lee]

It is as if the manifold does not fit EXCEPT that I have been riding around in it for years
without having this issue....and there is a brand spanking new gasket in there because
it was not that hard or expensive to do. I have to say that I was wondering where
it was leaking because I looked at the old gaskets very very carefully and did not
see anything out of the ordinary. No burn marks and the depressions were exactly
where they were supposed to be.

I will feel for the leaks I am afraid I will still be in the dark on how an exhaust
manifold or head could develop a leak that a new gasket did not fix. If I have to
get a new exhaust manifold that would be ok but I cannot see committing the money
to one until I can definitively determine that it is the problem.

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[TR3driver]

Why is your exhaust smoking so badly?? I'm with John, suspect the smoke is something besides exhaust.

Were the old gaskets burned when you took them off? An exhaust leak will leave tracks.

 

[Jim Lee]

I would love for it to be something other than exhaust....like oil burning off but to me there seems to be too much and
lasting too long for it to be oil burning off. Other than exhaust or oil burning off what else could it be?
I cannot think of any candidates as much as I would like to.

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[Jim Lee]

Here are some video links...

https://plus.google.com/photos/1151...5927346074632115026&oid=115125099853241962301

https://plus.google.com/photos/1151...5927314202739710802&oid=115125099853241962301

https://plus.google.com/photos/1151...5927314202739710802&oid=115125099853241962301

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[Jim Lee]

I am going to do a compression test and hunt for my previous numbers....which as I remember were not that bad.
Would a leak at the exhaust manifold affect compression numbers? I definitely did spray some PBlaster on the thread of the manifold studs
but if any got on the exhaust mani itself I would not expect it to be very much. If it was oil burning off I would think it would stop
after a relatively short period of time?

I am all ears as to where else the smoke might be coming from. The head gasket was replaced and the head reworked not too many
miles ago. Where else could exhaust leak from?

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[CJD]

No, the manifold will not affect the compression numbers.

Did you also replace the donut seal at the lower manifold? It is not uncommon for the lower manifold flange to crack, or the seal to blow out.

Finally, any chance of an oil or coolant leak onto the exhaust...like from the valve cover or the block drain spigot? I had a constant leak with oil burning, till I realized I was catching the valve cover on the edge of the manifold. I even replaced the valve cover gasket twice before I realized what was happening!

 

[TR3driver]

Looks like you need to mark the videos "public" or something like that. I get "You do not have permission to view this album."

An exhaust leak would not affect compression numbers; at least not until it caused a burned valve or something. But if you were getting large amounts of smoke and the gaskets didn't look burned (and not getting huge clouds of smoke out the exhaust) then I'm almost certain you aren't looking at an exhaust leak. Remember, an exhaust leak would leak only a small amount of the same thing that is coming out of the tailpipe, so if there is a little smoke at the leak, there would be a lot of smoke at the tailpipe. Adding something to the intake to cause smoke (like MMO) is actually one "old timers" method of finding exhaust leaks.

 

[Jim Lee]

Call the dogs off please......

...per usual you guys were spot on. It was/is not an exhaust leak. It HAD to be errant penetrating oil or who knows
what that had to burn off after months of being in the garage with the hood up. Maybe lots of dust? In any case
my panic went into retreat just now as I started up and lo and behold there was no smoke. I think this car
is playing with me and my heart. How it decided to completely stop burning whatever it was burning before overnight
I will probably never know but that is how it appears to me.

So now it makes sense that my previous exhaust gasket looked absolutely fine. It was fine.

Thanks to all and on to my next panic attack.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee

 

[Darrell_Walker]

Re: Call the dogs off please......

...per usual you guys were spot on. It was/is not an exhaust leak. It HAD to be errant penetrating oil or who knows
what that had to burn off after months of being in the garage with the hood up. Maybe lots of dust? In any case
my panic went into retreat just now as I started up and lo and behold there was no smoke. I think this car
is playing with me and my heart. How it decided to completely stop burning whatever it was burning before overnight
I will probably never know but that is how it appears to me.

Even grabbing the manifold with greasy hands can create a fair bit of smoke the next time you start it up. It probably continued to bake off even after you shut the engine down. If you didn't get the engine all that hot, you may get some more smoke the next time you run it, especially if there is oil on the pipes further downstream.