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Gear Reduction starter!

VelodromeRacer

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I have thought back and forth about changing out the stock starter for the Moss gear reduction one...any thoughts?

I rebuilt the engine last summer and still cold starts are tough on the starter...any ideas?
 

GregW

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I’ve heard they make a world of difference. I’ve also heard that some of the starters have fitting problems, though I don’t recall Moss’ being one of them. Before taking the plunge, you might want to check your ground strap from frame to engine and make sure it is making a good contact.
 
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The starter makes a world of difference!

I took the plunge this past summer, and instead of me wondering "if" it will start, it now comes to life so fast as to scare you /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Years ago, I did the same mod on an MGBGT; same astonishing results,

The Healey:

IMG_6512.sized.jpg
 
OP
VelodromeRacer

VelodromeRacer

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Randy,

Did you find any issues with fitment of the unit? I saw that the Moss unit comes with install instructions and I found that odd...unless something needs to be modded for the unit to fit?
 

Keoke

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Well Vello, here is some other things to check before you splurge on the starter. 1] What is the CCA capacity of the battery you are using. 2] What is the condition of the starter in the car. 3] do you keep a battery maintainer on the battery when the car is not in use.

-------Suggestions:


For CCA capacity I suggest 1000 AMPS.

Keeping the battery at full charge, with a maintainer, will improve cold starting

The starter should be properly overhauled : New bushings and bearings, Commutator skimmed / undercut and new brushes.

Wear in these components will produce lackluster performance in the old starters.--Fwiw--Keoke

There are some down sides to the gear reduction starters on the Triumph forum and I consider them to be valid.!
 

Cutlass

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Wanting to stay reasonably authentic, but still get effective starting, I made the battery to solenoid cable from #2 cable, rather than the typical #2 wire. Also went to a 700+ cold cranking amp battery. Last week started a newly rebuilt engine, in around 40 degree weather, with great results. FWIW

Meant to say the original cable was #4.
 
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VelodromeRacer said:
Randy,

Did you find any issues with fitment of the unit? I saw that the Moss unit comes with install instructions and I found that odd...unless something needs to be modded for the unit to fit?
The (universal) starter needs to be rotated a few degrees on the Healey-specific mount. After that, it bolts right up.

The light gauge wires need extending (or you could keep the original solenoid as the "junction" point). I had already replaced my main battery cable with some welding lead, so I can't comment on how the original lead makes up.
 

Keoke

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Cutlass said:
Wanting to stay reasonably authentic, but still get effective starting, I made the battery to solenoid cable from #2 cable, rather than the typical #2 wire. Also went to a 700+ cold cranking amp battery. Last week started a newly rebuilt engine, in around 40 degree weather, with great results. FWIW


WOT !!-can you clarify this just a bit?--Keoke- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif------ /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
 
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Keoke said:
There are some down sides to the gear reduction starters on the Triumph forum and I consider them to be valid.!
Without subjecting me to the rigors of performing a search of the dreaded (personal opinion /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ) Triumph forum, what issues have they encountered?

Only things I can think of, is if they were not cautious about where the main battery terminal is rotated to (could be a cause for concern, if they put it touching the engine block). On the MG, I insulated the lower distributor cap retainer, so that it couldn't swing down (when released) and touch a "hot" terminal.

As I stated yesterday, I haven't had anything to be concerned about with the one I put on the Healey, nor the MG version I did perhaps some ten (10) years ago.

I'll grant you, they are not cheap, but then neither are our original starters.
 

Dave Russell

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VelodromeRacer said:
I have thought back and forth about changing out the stock starter for the Moss gear reduction one...any thoughts?
A while back I replaced my starter with a gear reduction starter by IMI. The starter has nine sets of mounting holes between the starter nose (mounting surface) & the starter body. The nine sets permits "clocking" of 40 dergees on the starter body to clear all frame/body obstructions that may be present. Some other brands (Moss) have fewer optional hole positions & may present some starter body to car clearance problems.

The starter spins the engine much faster & draws far less current than the original. It also weighs about 18 pounds less.

While true that the original starter engaged the ring gear from the back & the GRS engages the ring gear from the front, this presented no problems. It "is" good to verify the depth of pinion gear engagement with the ring gear & correct if necessary. The IMI drive pinion is slightly beveled on the engagement side which may take the place of the originally beveled ring gear.

This was so successful that I replaced the original two six volt batteries (BN2) with a single 12 volt sealed AGM battery by WESTCO. This battery is very small & light. It easily fit in one of the original 6 volt battery compartments.

Original batteries, type 17 HF, per set - 450 cold cranking amps.
Ampere hours - 60.
Weight - 70 lb.

Westco single #12V31M "AGM" battery - 475 cold cranking amps.
Ampere hours - 31.
Weight - 24 lb.

Obviously, the reduced amp hour capacity of the new battery will not permit as much cranking time as the old batteries, but with the gear reduction starter, it never fails to start on the first few engine turns, if not instantly. It has never come close to using the 31 AH capacity of the battery, even with starts in 20 to 30 degree weather. Starting may be quicker with the Pertronics ignition & coil. Once it starts, the 45 amp Lucas alternator quickly recharges the battery.

The AGM battery can set for quite long periods without a maintenance charge.

The 46 lb. weight reduction in the batteries & 18 lb. reduction of starter weight doesn't hurt anything either.

I prefer to keep the car somewhat original, but the electrics can definitely benefit from modern upgrades.
D
 
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Dave Russell said:
... I prefer to keep the car somewhat original, but the electrics can definitely benefit from modern upgrades.
D
/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I'm clearly in the "unafraid to mod" category, and certainly agree with Dave here, as I usually do.

Donald Healey has told many a Healey enthusiast that he thinks any possible improvement to reliability and/or performance is okay with him. Remember, he was working with the best readily available/cost effective parts he could get at the time. He and Geoff would've gladly substituted for the best available components at any cost, if the accountants would've signed off on it.

To all the individuals that will only use NOS and refurbished original parts, I'll try to offer some help when I see you stopped by the side of the road /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
 

Cutlass

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Keoke: Edited my post here. I meant to say that the cable I chose was a #2, as opposed to original #4. Less resistance. At least that is what I was thinking at the time. Seems to work quite well.
 

zblu

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Dave Russell, what you mention is a question I have`come across many a time, if the original bendix was a throw out or throw in and the ring gear on the flywheel only has the bevel on one face how is the contact made without embarassing crunching?, or is the ring gear sweated off and reversed?
 

zblu

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Dave Russell, what you mention is a question I have`come across many a time, if the original bendix was a throw out or throw in and the ring gear on the flywheel only has the bevel on one face how is the contact made without embarassing crunching?, or is the ring gear sweated off and reversed?
 

Keoke

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Well Zblu, Dave did his home work and bought a unit that includes proper beveling to engage the flywheel ring. Read his post carefully its included there. A cautionary note; a ring gear cannot be removed from a fly wheel and reinstalled. Usually during replacement we cut them off.---Fwiw---Keoke
 

Dave Russell

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Zblu,
The "Bendix" type starter uses a spiral splined shaft which the drive pinion rides on. It relies on the inertia of the drive pinion against the spiral, when the shaft starts to rotate, to move the pinion into engagement with the ring gear. "Bendix" drives have been made to engage from the front of the flywheel or from the back. The ring gear teeth are frequently beveled to help the pinion engage.

The Bendix type drive can have problems with the pinion not moving freely enough on it's spiral splines & failing to engage the ring gear. It is always recommended that the splines & pinion NOT be lubricated with anything, as it usually causes more problems than it solves.

The more "modern" gear reduction starter relies on a solenoid & linkage to positively move the pinion gear into engagement with the ring gear before the starter turns. Much the same as the old Ford starters which were touted as positive engagement starters, but didn't have the reduction gears.

Reduction gear starters have the advantage of being able to use a smaller higher speed motor which allows a smaller motor & often, increased starter torque.

Positive engagement starters often have a bevel on the starter pinion only, with no bevel on the flywheel.

Both types sometimes have a problem of knocking the ring gear out of position on the flywheel if it is not fitted VERY tightly. Aluminum flywheels especially have this problem & usually have their ring gear positively anchored to the flywheel by mechanical means. Steel flywheels have sometimes had the ring gear spot welded to the flywheel, usually for a quick fix for a ring gear that does not fit tightly enough & is subject to "knock back".

As I noted above, when changing any starter, it is good to actually check the depth of pinion engagement with the flywheel. Too little & the edges of the gears will quickly wear. Too much engagement can cause the ring gear to be knocked out of position on the flywheel.
D
 

Keoke

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-------Not fit AH, if they fit "Tupperware" cars too??---Keoke- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
 

DART

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got one for the glass fibre restore project a couple months ago so not in market now. had to swap out pinion (?) gear because of odd # of teeth. probably should have posted as a new thread in the rumph section.
 

Keoke

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Naw you are welcomed here. Do you have both cars running now?---Cheers -Keoke
 
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