Engine stiff to hand turn

[middie]

I have started stripping down the 1500 motor from my 79 and thought I'd start off by seeing how much movement I had in my thrust washers. I tried to look for movement by gently levering between the rear of block and flywheel, and front of block and crank pulley. But unfortunately I couldn't get any movement at all.

Ah, ha, I thought - this is not good. So I tried to turn the motor over by hand to see what was going on. Now I know I'm not the strongest bloke in the world, but I thought I'd be able to make the pistons go "up and down", but once again no movement.

Is there a secret "motor movement" process I should be using?

My worry is that the motor has been out of the car for a couple of months now, with quite a few of the bits off it. Is it possible that moisture has found its way inside and done a bit of rusting of pistons to cylinders?

If this is the case how do I proceed from here? I've squirted some WD40 into the spark plug holes to see if that will loosen somthing up.

thanks Warren

 

[aeronca65t]

WD-40 is sort of a crappy lubricant. You'd be better off pouring kerosene or even normal motor oil down the cylinders. Let it sit for a day or two.

With the plugs out, you should be able to turn the engine without too much difficulty.

If it's tight, try screwing one of the upper engine-to-trans bolts part-way into the block. Put a big screwdriver between that bolt and against the teeth on the flywheel. You should be use this as a fulcrum to turn it. If not, there's obviously a big problem.

If you suspect a stuck valve, you might try removing the rocker arms before trying to turn the engine. A stuck valve (very possible) could make the engine difficult to turn. Removing the rocker arm will eliminate any valve motion.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Warren, you do have the spark plugs out of the engine right? Otherwise you would fighting against the compression of the engine.

 

[PAUL161]

Warren, WD 40 is a water displacer and regardless what is said about it, it's worthless as a lubricant. This product has been miss read by many over the years, so don't despair. As long as the engine is going to be flushed, put an ounce or two of Marvel Mystery oil, (don't know if it's available in your area), in each cylinder or even transmission fluid and let it set for a day. If you use transmission fluid, mix a little acetone with it, as it will help the fluid find it's way faster. More than likely a little surface rust formed and the rings stuck. JMHO. PJ

 

[middie]

Thanks for your speedy replies gentlemen. I sent off a reply yesterday but the Internet is in all sorts of trouble at my place due to some heavy downfalls over the last few days. If I end up with two replies please forgive me.

I actually used a product called Penetrine, but wasn't sure if it was known overseas so used the generic WD40 term which everyone knows.

Didn't know it was as bad as people are suggesting, so I'll just use if for my Mini Moke which doesn't like getting water into the motor. All early Mini owners know to carry a can of WD40 in case they run through a puddle.

I suppose I am panicking a bit because I couldn't get any movement to see if the thrust washers were worn. I'm assuming the camshaft will move, even though I may have a stuck valve, or rusty piston walls???????? Or maybe the thrust washers are just fine, and don't allow any movement at all.

The PO doesn't know if any work was done on the motor before he bought it, but told me it wasn't blowing any smoke. I took the valve cover off, and it seems that some of the larger nuts are all "bright and shiny". Don't know if this is normal, or someone has already been burrowing into the motor. Time will tell.

I'll have to find some time to track down that Mystery Oil and see what I can do. The kerosine in the spark plug holes sounds good. I will be pulling the sump off to get to the thrust washers so I can just let the kerosine drip down until I empty it out.

cheers Warren

 

[jlaird]

So, you know they make a special tool to turn the engine when it is out of car. It hooks on flywheel and make an easy job of it. Try a local car place.

I think you just have a stiff engine, also think about all the friction in the valve train even when it is ok.

Do not give up do not panic, do not collect 200 dollars when passing go.

All is very prob. well.

 

[HAN8L1965]

If you have ever watched "Chasing Classic Cars" they always use WD40 as their first move to loosen an old motor. The guy usually counts to 5 as he sparys into each cylinder then lets it set. It must work and they are working on some high end merchandise.

Mark

 

[Hap Waldrop]

WD40 as mentioned is not that great of a lube, it has a many solvents in it as lube, but it does do better in some applications than say PBlaster or Kroil or the good penetrating oils, which over time get gummy on surface, I use WD40 as quick spray on a engien block after final hot water washing on the cylinder bore and main saddles, in this case PBlaster and such products are not as good. It really depends on what you are using a spray lube for.

 

[hooey]

WD-40 is not a lube !! In 1953, a fledgling company called Rocket Chemical Company and its staff of three set out to create a line of rust-prevention solvents and degreasers for use in the aerospace industry, in a small lab in San Diego, California.

It took them 40 attempts to get the water displacing formula worked out
just so you know

 

[middie]

Thanks once again gentlemen. It is good to know that I've sparked a lively debate about WD40.

I've managed to track down someone in Australia who stocks Marvel Mystery Oil.

Is it actually so good that I should pay about $66 for a gallon of it delivered to home?????? Can buy a heck of a lot of WD40 for that :crazy:

Perhaps someone could tell me whether it is normal to get no movement at all when trying to see if the thrust bearings are worn. I'm taking the sump off, so what do you think I should look for to see if they are OK?

Warren

 

[JPSmit]

no - it's not that good. Is the engine in the car? have we established that it is frozen? Before we go further, what are you actually trying to accomplish when you say "strip down." getting it running again? a total rebuild? freshening up? I feel like you might be missing the forest for the trees here - yes, the thrust bearing are a vulnerability of the car but they aren't that bad, and, if we can get it running, don't worry about them. can you turn the engine with the plugs out by rolling it in gear?

 

[middie]

G'day JP

The engine is sitting on an engine stand outside the car. I am restoring the Midget to get her onto the road, and convert from LHD to RHD. I haven't actually had the engine running because it was all disconnected when I had it shipped over from California.

I took the engine out to let me get to the engine bay both to cleanup and paint, as well as the cutting and welding required for the conversion.

I've been trying to see if it is frozen and have had lots of help from the forum. I could turn it over when it was in the car, but haven't been able to turn it with it out.

I'm hoping it is just because it isn't that easy to grab that damned flywheel without a bit of "pain" involved.

When I say I am "stripping it down" I am just going to renew the gaskets, have a look at the thrust washers, see what looks like it needs replacing, and hopefully leave it at that. I guess that qualifies for a "freshen up", or is there more I should do?

Because I can now turn the motor upside down while on the engine stand, I thought it was a good time to put a new pair of thrust washers in while I was going. That is, if they haven't already been replaced before.

Warren

 

[aeronca65t]

.....It is good to know that I've sparked a lively debate about WD40.

.....Is it actually so good that I should pay about $66 for a gallon of it delivered to home?????? Warren

Haha. If you think the WD-40 debate is lively, wait until you see the brake fluid debate! :laugh:

That said, I can tell you I've have great luck with kerosene for this exact purpose. Kerosene is a light oil with decent lubricating qualities. I "saved" a stuck Toyota engine (rings stuck) by flooding the cylinders with kerosene, letting it sit a few days, and gently "rocking" the crank back and forth until it could turn fully. I got 80,000 miles out of it after that!

Also, this may be obvious, but make sure that there isn't part of the engine stand that's binding against the flywheel or crank (preventing it from turning). Personally, I don't use engine stands for these little engines. I'm just doing a motor myself right now and just have it sitting on a work table on a bunch of old towels. They're easy enough to flip over or move about. When mine's all put back together, I'll use a hoist to lift it off the table and into the car.
(I hope this doesn't start an engine stand debate)

 

[leecreek]

+1 on the kerosene. Brought a stuck 500 cu in junkyard Caddy engine to life with it.

 

[JPSmit]

G'day JP

The engine is sitting on an engine stand outside the car. I am restoring the Midget to get her onto the road, and convert from LHD to RHD. I haven't actually had the engine running because it was all disconnected when I had it shipped over from California.

............

I could turn it over when it was in the car, but haven't been able to turn it with it out.

...............

When I say I am "stripping it down" I am just going to renew the gaskets, have a look at the thrust washers, see what looks like it needs replacing, and hopefully leave it at that. I guess that qualifies for a "freshen up", or is there more I should do?

Because I can now turn the motor upside down while on the engine stand, I thought it was a good time to put a new pair of thrust washers in while I was going. That is, if they haven't already been replaced before.

Warren

Warren, thanks for this information. First off, unless you live in Brisbane and the car spent the last month under water, (sorry bad joke but being from OZ I suspect bad jokes are all you know

) if you could turn the engine over then it shouldn't be frozen now. So, here's what I'd suggest>

1. strip down the engine (I presume you know enough about cars)
2. Spend a couple hundred dollars to get the block boiled and measured (get your rad recored at the same time and you won't have overheating issues which matters there even more than here)
3. replace bearings, thrust bearings and gaskets. (FWIW thrust bearings cost $6. At that price it doesn't matter if they were re-done last week, do them again)
4. replace clutch and clutch plate and thrust bearing.
5. replace water pump
6. Maybe replace oil pump.

reassemble and drive. At this point you are getting bogged down trying to measure what is (I think) literally the most inexpensive part and one of the easiest to swap out. when I got mine, which admittedly had not run in a few years, it had a "button" glued to the block which said it was a rebuilt engine. For all I know it may have been rebuilt a month before it went off the road - I replaced everything anyway since it wouldn't strand the PO it would strand me.

PS you may want to do the timing chain too while you have it out.

 

[JPSmit]

Oh, and do the piston rings too

 

[jlaird]

Warren needs some one local to give him 30 min of hands on help. From what I read here he does not have any engine experience.

Please excuse me Warren but I think you are makeing mountans out of mole hills.

Get some one to help for just a bit. Car club or such maybe.

 

[RichBall]

Warren,

I've got to give a +1 to Marvel Mystery Oil. When I picked up my '76 Midget it had been sitting for over twenty years. Just to see what I had gotten into the first thing I did was put a couple ounces of MMO in each cylinder and let it sit for a week. Remember that your pistons have a dished top so you need to add enough of whatever you chose to fill that volume and cover the top of the piston so that it can seep down between the piston and cylinder wall. After a week I used the front pulley and rocked the crank back and forth until I could get full rotation. Rebuilding the carb and a set of new plugs and she fired right off.

It's a cheap first thing to try. You can always go deeper from there.

 

[hooey]

if it is froze up use Marvel Mystery Oil to get it unfrose
but you need to see why it frose up if it was the rings
you better take it all a part!!!!! there will be crap in the ring lands not letting the ring do it job and it will bind!!!
you don't whant to try to start it up and brake a ring
the cost for ring is not that much but if you have to rebore it and replace the pistion it will cost a lot
replace the all the bearing rod and mains and your T washers and oil pump
I would also look at the head and do what it need's
do it right the first time !!

 

[middie]

Thanks guys - I take all your advice to heart and act accordingly. I thought $66 for a gallon of MMO was bloody expensive, but it seems to get the tick of approval.
It all started when I tried to see if there was any excess movement so I could order thicker washers if needed. I'm going to replace them anyway, but just wanted to make sure of thickness.
I use my manual, and the help of the forum here and one in Australia, and I'm slowly drilling down into the motor. Know squat all about mechanical stuff, but it is fun experimenting.
I'm going to flip the motor over and have a look around the bottom end and replace washers.

aeronce - The reason I'm up on an engine stand is that I'm a bit stuck for space, and the table just kept getting in the way. This way I can wheel the engine wherever I want to get to things. Plus, just the fact I can spin it while it is up there is a great bonus in my opinion.

Let the engine stand debate begin

Warren