Clutch nightmare continues

[Kleykamp]

Had clutch issues with intermittantly not engaging...like most of the time. Hydraulic all replaced with new. Took trans out. Replaced taper pin...old one had cracked, was bent and showed wear. Also replaced fork pins at top which had flat spots. Had some grease in bell housing which I believe came from over greasing the shaft fitting, but replaced front seal and gasket anyway and cleaned all parts. Pressure plate and t/o bearing OK, and clutch disk had alot of life left but was somewhat glazed with grease so I replaced the disk with new.
Checked operation of lever. Lever sits angled slightly forward (toward slave cyl)with fork at full reward travel and moves freely to the forward limit. Old disk had "flywheel side" stamped on it. Installed new one the same way. 99.9 percent certain as I placed the new disk on the alignment tool while looking at the old disk to be sure. wrestled the trans back in. realized in re-assembly that I had installed the slave cyl on the wrong side of the bracket so moved it so it mounted from the trans side of the bracket and not the engine side. tested and would not go into first...no clutch. Also replaced trans mount. I've thought back thru everything, trying to find solution. What's wrong? sorry so long winded.

 

[hondo402000]

are you sure you got all the air out of the system?
I had to take my slave cyliner off and tilt the bleeder screw upward to get the air out, everything else you have describes sounds to have been done correctly

not that it matters but have you checked the transmission fluid level

Hondo

 

[Kleykamp]

Gear grease is low, which I intend to get to. I wondered about the bleeding. I noticed I can push the actuator rod back into the slave cylinder with minimal resistance, which did not seem right to me. Also recall, when I bolted up the pressure plate, it was just shy of the locating dowls, so that as I tighted the bolts(at angles for equal pressure) it was putting a "load" on the pressure plate. I did not remember this from prior clutch jobs, but it seemed to be correct.

 

[hondo402000]

the pressure plate will be shy of the flywheel when the clutch disc is in place and as you tighten up the pressure plate the spring finger will gradually go inwards and the plate will snug up to the flywheel, thats normal

try bleeding the system again, it would help if you had a helper and check the clutch master often there is not a lot of fluid in there and in 2 pumps it could be dry hince more air

Hondo

 

[TR3driver]

I noticed I can push the actuator rod back into the slave cylinder with minimal resistance, which did not seem right to me.

That isn't right, on a TR3. The return spring should be always pulling the rod into the slave until the piston bottoms in the bore. And the pushrod should be adjusted so the rod can only come out by 1/10" or less before the lever is as far to the rear as you can move it with your hand.

Here is the correct arrangement for TR3-4 with front disc brakes (Girling hydraulics). Some of the manuals don't show it correctly.

 

[Kleykamp]

That's the way I had mine initially, then moved the slave to the other side of the bracket, because I was having to screw part 4 (fork)all the way to the end of the threads. I can take my hand and push the rod farther back into the slave cylinder. It moves slowly, like the piston is going back into the cylinder. It puts up minimal resistance, when I push it in. It also appears to be in the correct position when pushed in,but it will then slowly come back out on it's own. It seem then, that the master cylinder has to take up the slack before it can begin pushing the rod and clutch mechanism to engage the clutch. It seems I'm getting enough "push" to move the lever, until it reaches the point the t/o bearing meets the clutch, then it peters out. When at rest,does the t/o bearing rest on the pressure plate spring lever. I've had to do the bleeding alone, by sticking my arm down between the trans and floor to turn the bleeder, while pumping pedal with my other hand...and yes it hurts HA. Tomorrow my son will be here and I'll enlist him to push the pedal. Bought a cheap vacuum pump, which I promply threw in the garbage.

 

[sail]

Speed Bleeders allow you to bleed w/o help.

 

[Kleykamp]

Have now pumped 1 can of fluid thru the hydraulics. open bleeder, push pedal,hold, close bleeder and repeat ab nausium. filled up a twelve oz. cup with fluid from bleeder. lever moves from verticle to roughly 33-45 degree angle toward rear of car when clutch pedal pushed but pedal still feels very weak and clutch does not engage and will not go into 1st. car came with a new sansai ?? master cylinder and also a brake master. the brakes work fine. Actually all was working intermittantly until I replaced the internal parts as outlined above. Would it be possible,god forbid, that the input shaft could go in and bind, causing a direct drive effect? I have started the car in neutral and there are no internal noises. I really believe the hydraulics are the correct suspect. I also have cranked the engine in gear and it does move. I'm out of options as to what else to try,short of ordering new master and slave cylinders. Still don't understand why I can push the rod back into the slave cylinder. Any more suggestions?

 

[TR3driver]

lever moves from verticle to roughly 33-45 degree angle toward rear of car when clutch pedal pushed

That should be more than enough, which indicates the hydraulics are not the problem.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]car came with a new sansai ?? master cylinder[/QUOTE]
Hmm. I really doubt this is your problem, but someone reported not too long ago getting a new Stag clutch MC that was simply defective. You might try swapping MCs (since they are the same on a TR3A).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Would it be possible,god forbid, that the input shaft could go in and bind, causing a direct drive effect?[/QUOTE]
Possible, I guess, but that wouldn't explain the pedal feeling weak.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Still don't understand why I can push the rod back into the slave cylinder. Any more suggestions? [/QUOTE]
I hate to say this, but it sounds to me like there is still something wrong inside the bellhousing. Being able to push the rod into the slave means that the adjustment is grossly too short (even without the spring, the lever should push the rod in to within 0.1" of the bottom), and yet you've already moved the slave closer to the lever than it should be.

Is there any chance the rod could be broken, or deliberately shortened at some point? I don't recall the length offhand, but if you measure and post what you've found, I'm sure someone will check. A photo might help too, if you can.

 

[TR3driver]

PS, forgot to mention : IIRC installing the friction plate backwards can cause similar symptoms. The springs are supposed to stick out on the clutch side, where there is room for them. If they stick out the other way, they foul on the flywheel bolts.

 

[sp53]

Usually if the disk is in backwards, the pedal will not go to the floor because the spring assembly hits the flywheel first. At least that is what happened to me when I was 20, and put one in backwards working on a spitfire. It has been a while, but is there not a difference in throw out bearings between tr3 and tr4? The Borg and Beck type and the other type which takes a different bearing?

 

[TR3driver]

It has been a while, but is there not a difference in throw out bearings between tr3 and tr4? The Borg and Beck type and the other type which takes a different bearing?

TR4 is same as TR3, the change was between TR4 and TR4A.

 

[Kleykamp]

Don't think the plate is backwards. Original plate was marked "flywheel side" and I configured the new one on the alignment tool from that reference. Don't think I got interrupted to have lost track.
I tested the lever while trans was out and it appeared to be operating properly and moving the t/o bearing.
The rod does not appear to have been modified, but I can measure it.
Adjusting the rod is a moving target. With the slave cylinder installed, but not connected to the pivot arm, I can feel it touch the piston, then push it with one finger into the cylinder, when I take my finger away the piston starts pushing the rod back out. To me, this is taking up all the travel, before the fluid starts to push against it with any force.
The master cyl name was "super siani" The rods in them were so short, I had to take the rods out of the old cylinders and put them in the new, but it worked fine on the brakes.
One other question. Does the bearing sleeve travel go all the way to the back of the front end cover that it slides on? Mine does.
I'm still stuck on it being hydraulic though as the clutch pedal is just dead. It also stops short of going to the floor. I do not see any leaks. I think my next step will be to order slave and master cylinders and start from scratch on that. Isn't there some valve built in to keep fluid from back up in system?

 

[Geo Hahn]

...Isn't there some valve built in to keep fluid from back up in system?

The little seal on the end of the M/C shaft acts like a little check valve to assure that the pressure goes to the slave and not back into the reservoir. FWIW when I have had M/C failures it has always been that seal that failed, not the big seal on the piston. That (little seal) failure presents no leaks or other visible evidence... just no clutch.

 

[sp53]

"It also stops short of going to the floor."




If the pedal stops short and is solid before it hits the floor, then I would suggest the disc is in backwards. The pedal cannot hit the floor because the spring assembly on the disc is hitting the flywheel first before the actual clutch material comes in contact with the flywheel, creating a rock hard pedal about an inch short of hitting the floor

 

[Kleykamp]

That's about where the pedal stops, but couldn't that also result from the master cylinder rod bottoming out in the cylinder? As mentioned the old part was marked "flywheel side" and I was pretty attentive to that step in the process. I won't say it's impossible but I did apply a variation of the old carpenter adage "look twice- install once". Installing it backward sounds exactly like something I would do, so I paid particular attention to the detail. Also that would not explain anything about why I have soft or little resistence in the pedal. If the hydraulics were working you would at least feel some resistence at the time the t/o bearing started pushing on the spring levers prior to hitting bottom

 

[Kleykamp]

For anyone who has stuck with me, The push rod is 4 3/4" long. Is this right? I'm grasping at straws, so I screwed the rod further into the fork. The result is: the clutch pedal only goes halfway to the floor now. I really can't think that I put the clutch disk in backward. Even if I did, wouldn't you still feel some give as the t/0 bearing hits the spring levers on the clutch, not just a dead stop?
Oh, and why did my thread suddenly get wider than the page?

 

[CJD]

Is there a chance the clutch got hung up on the flywheel locating dowels? You should be able to tell from the inspection plate with a small mirror.

John

 

[Geo Hahn]

...I'm grasping at straws...

Okay, here's one straw:

On my TR3A the clutch will never disengage if I have that external spring attached. I remove the spring it works just fine.

I have tried many combinations of adjustments, different holes, bleeding, have rebuilt master & slave thru the years -- nothing seems to matter.

I have driven it 30+ years w/o that spring. The one I bought when I saw it was missing is still hanging on the peg board in case I need it when/if I pull the gearbox.

So maybe try things w/o that spring -- not much to lose at this point.

 

[Kleykamp]

Went out a while ago. sat down in the car and pushed the clutch pedal to the floor with no resistence, after not being able to push it more than half way to the floor 5 hrs previous. has to be in the hydraulics. no sign of a leak, but the pressure is leaking off somewhere. I also notice that the fluid cannister always has a little fluid around the upper rim around the lid. I think the master cylinder is allowing the fluid to back up from the system. First thing tomorrow, I'm ordering a new GOOD master cylinder instead of another 35.00 one. If this turns out to be the problem, two out of three were defective. The first one had messed up threads that would not accept the pipe fitting.