TR6 Anyone have their TR6 head ported professionally

[Guest]

I'm curious as to the numbers you got.
And of course even more curious about the cost...
PM me if you don't want everyone to know - I'm trying to figure out if the numbers I'm being given are realistic.

TIA, Alan

 

[ALLAN]

Alan, My head was professionally ported, although you may not consider it proffessional because the head was not flow tested. But I can tell you it was done by an experienced owner of a large automotive machine shop and he builds alot of race engines. He gave the head a mild-moderate port job cleaning up the floors and lower radius leading to the valve, he cleaned up the bowls, removed the humps in the chambers and port matched the ports. Five years ago he charged me $160, My quess now is that he would charge $300. I know you are going high tech and supercharger, but unless you are going to be in all out competition I think flowing the head is unnecessary if the porting is done by an experienced guy.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, ALLAN. My problem is that I'm limited to power mainly by what the head will flow. If I have the numbers up front then I'll know what I should be looking at hp-wise, and will be able to determine fairly quickly if I have a problem elsewhere.

The real trouble with this approach is that it is not inexpensive. I get a basic 3-angle valve job and port matching as part the cost of my rebuild. Anything more than that means sending it out, which starts to cost. Both quotes I have to do this are in 4 figures. One gives me #s - for this much flow it's $xxx, for this much it
s $xxx. The other is to get a "race port" whatever that means.

I know it's quite a bit of work to port one of these things, but this seems like quite a goodly chunk of change. I was expecting the cost to be a few hundred bucks, so basically I want to make sure I'm getting the going rate.

 

[Bugeye58]

Alan, I would expect a well ported and flowed head to be in the $2000-$3000 range. This would include valves, seats, springs, and guides.
And, I don't care how many heads someone has done, a flowbench will show up the subtle differences between each port, and allow tweaking to maximize efficiency. I certainly wouldn't buy a head without the bench results.
Jeff

 

[Guest]

Thanks Jeff, thats what I needed. I'm in that range with better than stock parts and results guaranteed so I guess I'd better shut up and pay up.

I don't mind paying the going rate, I just hate to feel like I'm getting ripped off.

 

[ALLAN]

The cost I gave was just for the porting, but I knew the guy pretty well and he gave me a deal. Experience does make a difference when you are not flowing your head and can and has worked fine for alot of people. Alan, what numbers are you looking for and if they are not just right for you then where else would you look, as you said the power comes from the head. Is this for all out competition?, if not then I still think four figures to port your head is too much. "Maximize efficiency" this is an old british motor we are talking about---that has its limits.

 

[swift6]

Remember that Alan is not building a "competition" engine but he is building it for high horsepower via supercharging and fuel injection. So while he may not be running huge compression and camshaft profiles he does need to move a lot of air under pressure. The heads flow rate is a huge factor in pressurized systems.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[trboost]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

In the race world I would agree that bench flow testing to optimize flow is critical. Race motors run at max rpm to produce max HP. From Alans description this motor will see stop light stints & occasional longer runs. The differance here might be 10-15hp between a good valve job, cleaning the bowls & basic CCing, larger valves as compared to a major race prepared head for 2-$3,000. In my opinion (and this certainly may not be yours ) , it's not a good return on investment. Forced induction overcomes many flow design short comings but there is always room for improvment. This hp can be made up in many places, from cam design to exhaust & header design.

If you read Kastner's race prep manual you will get details on a race prepared head which can be applied to a street motor. Kas was able to pump incredable HP out of a naturaly aspirated motor.

I guess the answer is , in the real world there is no limit for optimization and improvment but in the practical world there are always limits & realistic returns.

 

[Guest]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

I wrote a long reply about why I wanted this, then deleted it. Instead here's the Cliff Notes version.

I want to see how much hp I can get out of a stock TR6 block retaining the street car manners and keeping reliability. I'm not quite sane I think - a 302 swap would have been a lot cheaper.

I'm investing a lot of time and effort into this. If I thought reshaping the combustion chamber would help I'd do it (as an aside I've been told adding weld makes reliability an issue for a streetable car). That given I'm going to try to get the head to flow as much as possible. I just want to make sure that:

1) I'm getting as good results as I can without total diminishing returns.
2) I'm paying market rate.

I'm qualified as an engineer - I need to see numbers. Flowbench results are a must. I read Kastners book and I think he did an incredible job, but with all due respect technology has moved on in the last 30 years.

I hope we can do better now with modern materials and technology than he did 30 years ago with a die grinder and a lot of skill and patience.

 

[trboost]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Hi Alan,

Please don't get me wrong, I think your project is incredible & your research in to the potential of this motor is thorough. All of us on this side of the performance fence will learn from your work. My reply was definitly not critisism but just opinion on best potential for performance.

I fully understand your desire to use the TR lump instead of a V8. I love the V8 swaps, but when you've just spanked a new mustang & you pull over to talk , there's something about doing it with 6 cylinders that makes it that much better /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Keep on moving forward, I think you'll be amazed at the end result.

 

[Guest]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Actually Mitch I wasn't sold on using the 6's block to start with. I figured a v8 swap would give me a lot more power and I can get a crate one pretty reasonably priced, after which it's "how much hp do you want sir?" but I couldn't find anyone I'd trust to do the modification work required and do it right. That plus my wife saying that it wasn't a TR-6 any more if I got rid of the engine is what set me off down this route.

When I started I needed an engine rebuild. I was thinking about bolting on the Vintage Air / Sal Vespertino s/c for a bit more go (which I think is what you have, no?). Then I saw Rick Patten's MPI project and sort of lost the plot, deciding that if he can do it, so can I.

That said, it is more a project management exercise right now than anything else. I've farmed out so much of the work I almost feel embarrassed saying that it's mine. If I ever wrote up the list of changes, I think the "acknowledgements" list would be longer than the writeup. The only bright side right now is that I have a lot of Jegs baseball caps after ordering the fuel system this last week. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ALLAN]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Alan, I agree with trboost, he was able to put it better than me regarding the practical side of things. Dont get me wrong either, it will be interesting and informative to see just how much hp you can get. but remember when you ask old school guys like me you are going to get an answer that leans more on practicality and not $$$$. Im sure your engine will produce some big hp, I cant wait to see the numbers

 

[Guest]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Then for these purposes perhaps it would have been better if I said I was trying to build an engine for a no-teardown race series that was limited to stock RPM but had no intake restrictions.

Actually though all I really wanted were some numbers
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[vettedog72]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Alan:

I applauded your research and empirical approach to the mods of the TR6. Other than cam and exhaust, the improvements you make will be the new standard for those really interested in TR6 performance.

I see some head mods and associated pricing as follows:

Enlarged and shaped ports for max flow
Contoured combustion chamber
Valve pockets relieved for max flow
Valve grind to precise 3 angle racing seat
Valve spring shimmed
Head milled sq
Head assembled
$1000 NO PARTS INCLUDED

Other mods:
Oversized valve seats $20/valve
Recess valves in head $20/valve
Ports matched to manifold $30/port

Even more important, I applaud your willingness to share your findings.


GO ALAN!

 

[beez]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Alan,

I would love to see your results and what all you have done when you are finished! What you are doing should be written up somewhere for future reference... you are definilty doing some cutting edge stuff there and it could help some people out down the road. There probably won't be too many people going to the extremes you are, but alot of the stuff you are doing is very useful!

I think you made the right decision to keep the 6 engine. I thought about switching the engine as well, but just can't imagine the car without that engine!

Good luck and thanks for all the info you are providing to the community!

Adam
73 TR6

 

[ALLAN]

Re: Anyone have their TR6 head ported professional

Alan, you probably already know about or checked with this place but just in case here is some info, Advanced Performance Technology (APT) in Riverside CA. www.aptfast.com, has many british performance parts and provides expert professional performance machine work. They will provide a complete TR6 head ported to your specifications and the heads come complete with rimflow valves and all performance valvetrain parts. Their price is $1900--$2100 complete. I tried to get cfm. figures from them but they said you would have to call--- David or Phill at 1-800-278-3278. If this doesnt help maybe someone else can use this info.

 

[ALLAN]

Re: A P T

Alan, you probably already talked to APT, but here are some numbers they sent me. They said thier heads flow---intake 136 cfm, exhaust 107 cfm--at 25 psi. If your psi of 28 was used it would put the figures real close to the cfm figures you have. Not a bad deal for a complete performance ported head with rimflow valves. forgot to mention that was at .500 valve lift. After running some figures on this with the increased psi and allowing for more friction loss,I show intake 150cfm---exhaust 117cfm which is a little more than your figures showed on the exhaust side.--------------you wanted some numbers, Im doing my best.

 

[Guest]

Re: A P T

ALLAN - actually it's a shade more than I was quoted on the East Coast. I do really appreciate you taking the effort though.

As an aside - I was up at the shop where my car is. I didn't realise the guy doing it had farmed out the machine work to a race shop, so I spent some time there today too. It ended up taking longer than I expected, so I couldn't call APT back.

They are a different place to where I got the porting #s and $s from.

I spent a little time talking to the guy who will be building my engine - an old school racer.

I think I'm going to leave it at the shop where it is for now - purely for expediency. As I already said, they race prep engines - including TRs, so the 3 angle valve job, head milling and all that stuff they'll be able to do without any trouble for sure. I'm pretty sure they'll do the rest of the stuff if I ask them too.

The trouble is they are old-time racers. They aren't nearly as interested in the actual numbers as I am. I can (and will) get them of course. If it doesn't work out I can still send it off to have more work done. One really neat thing is that they have an engine dyno with a jig for a TR-6 so I'll be able to get some real hp numbers after the rebuild.

On a happier note, I found out this afternoon that I'm not waiting for pistons any more (they were ordered in November), so work can actually start in earnest. I can't wait!

 

[ALLAN]

Re: A P T

I edited my post and we crossed paths---just a few more figures I came up with.

 

[Guest]

Re: A P T

Once again, I do appreciate you taking the effort. It looks like 150/110ish is about the limit for a performance head before you start welding. If I get close then I ought to be in good shape.