TR2/3/3A A couple of questions.

[John_Progess]

I did not have the advantage of disassembling my 60 TR3 so I don't know how the tranny tunnel is supposed to fit. After much adjusting due to a new floor panel installed by the PO, the tunnel sits above the floor by about 1/4" all around. Is there a gasket or something that fits between the tunnel and floor? The mounting plate that secures the top bows to the body is attached to the bows with what appears to be a stepped bolt or screw with a (screw driver?) slot in it and two washers so the plate and bows can rotate. Both washers are missing on one side (so a very sloppy fit) and I was wondering if this is a threaded screw to be removed or some kind of rivet. Thanks for any help and have a good day!

John

 

[Geo Hahn]

There is a set of gaskets for the tunnel to floor board -- or some have used other material as I recall. I think you want to assume that the next person to remove it will be you so you'll want a seal or sealant that is easy to work with later.

The plate for the top bows attaches to the body with screws (possibly 1/4 x 28) that are slotted on the driven end and pointy (to help locate the captive plate) on the other end.

As I recall, the bows themselves were riveted to the plate though if they were disassembled by the PO for painting or powder coating perhaps they were put back together with screws.

I did not have the advantage of disassembling my 60 TR3...

Feel like you're doing a jigsaw puzzle without the box lid?

Okay, found a photo. It does appear that the head of whatever is holding those bows is slotted -- guess I never had occasion to take it apart.

 

[TR3driver]

On the TR3, I don't believe the factory used gaskets there. The book says to use sealer in the joint, which is what I do. But I've seen others use the gaskets from a TR4, and they seem to work. Certainly much neater to remove! On my car, though, the floor pulls up to meet the tunnel when the bolts are tightened up, so YMMV.

Those are shouldered bolts; should come out with enough persuasion. You may be able to find wavy (aka Bellevue) washers to fit and remove a source of rattles. Many years ago, I just tied a piece of baling twine into the joint

 

[Jerry]

John,
Disassembling a car is dirty work. I prefer to buy projects that someone took apart. It is a big puzzle and a real challange without the help of the people on this list. I don't have the experience that Randall has, but three Triumphs that I have worked on needed some kind of weatherstrip under the tunnel or you will get heat and water coming into your cockpit. If you use a closed cell foam, it should not leak. I usually needed at least two sizes. 1/2 inch and perhaps 3/8. Some of the gaps are larger than others. the bolts will squish the weather stripping down.
Jerry

 

[CJD]

It's carbon monoxide that I see as the real concern to not sealing the tunnel. Anything else that gets in is annoying. CO is invisible, odorless and deadly.

 

[TR3driver]

It's carbon monoxide that I see as the real concern to not sealing the tunnel. Anything else that gets in is annoying. CO is invisible, odorless and deadly.

Doesn't seem like much of a hazard in an open car. But the main point IMO would be to make sure the exhaust doesn't leak.

Besides which, CO is only deadly if you let it put you to sleep. Pull over and stop the engine if you feel sleepy!

 

[CJD]

The pre-WW2 aircraft were open cockpit too, but a lot of pilots were lost to CO. It doesn't matter how much good air you are getting, the small amount of CO is cumulative in your system. So a long exposure to a very small amount is just as bad as a short exposure to a lot. Plus, unlike you guys in SoCal, most of us have to enclose part of the year.

 

[TR3driver]

The pre-WW2 aircraft were open cockpit too, but a lot of pilots were lost to CO. It doesn't matter how much good air you are getting, the small amount of CO is cumulative in your system. So a long exposure to a very small amount is just as bad as a short exposure to a lot.

Hard to pull over for a nap when you're flying a plane, especially in wartime. Lots easier when driving a TR. And the CO in your blood will dissipate, eventually, if you remove the source. It works by tying up the hemoglobin, effectively making you anemic because there is less available to carry oxygen. Feels a lot like altitude sickness.

Oh, and long term exposure to low levels of CO doesn't usually lead to death; unless of course you fall asleep while operating something dangerous, like a TR or biplane. Generally, it takes over 500ppm to result in death directly, which means you would have to be breathing at least 1% or so car exhaust. Still seems unlikely to me, even with top & sidecurtains on. TRs just aren't that air-tight. And, you'd still have to have a major exhaust leak under (or in front of) the cabin.

Lower levels can lead to mental confusion, though

 

[CJD]

You're completely right.

I spent 6 years in the USAF investigating accidents. For pretty much every one of those accidents several very unlikely circumstances had to happen to result in a death or injury. Yet we still had several accidents a month. The key to prevention was to stop one or all of the "unlikely" circumstances from happening.

For CO to cause an issue, you have to have an exhaust leak. You have to be on a fairly long drive. You have to have holes in your firewall/floorboard. You have to not recognize you are becoming hypoxic. Etc...etc. All I'm saying is it is important to prevent what you can...and in this case, I feel it is very important to seal the tunnel gap. It's just one cause in a long line that can save your life...or the next PO's...one day from CO poisoning. And you will never know that it did!

We had to go through altitude chamber training annually in the AF, mainly to reinforce our recognition of hypooxia symptoms. They are insidious, and different for every person. The average Joe has no idea what to expect from hypoxia and will not recognize it. Even civilian trained pilots never go through altitude chamber training...and I can think of 2 large planes lost this last decade due to the crew passing out from a slow loss of pressurization. If you are not trained, it is unlikely you will notice you are hypoxic. Even if you are trained...there is still a good chance you won't. It's that insidious. You don't have to pass out in a car...just be slow and miss a tight turn, like when Tex was driving on the pacific coast highway 1.

 

[TR3driver]

You don't have to pass out in a car...just be slow and miss a tight turn, like when Tex was driving on the pacific coast highway 1.

Good point. BTDT. Fortunately I just side-swiped a guard rail. I'm a lot more religious now about pulling over if I feel drowsy or it seems to be hard to control the car.

And you're quite right about tunnel sealing (as well as floor boards and firewall) being one more line of defense against exhaust in the cockpit.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

The turn I missed was much less tight than the ones I took, but I can't say I wasn't slower than usual. Once upon a time I did fall asleep while driving my MGB, but I'm pretty sure it had more to do with a different poison I had been drinking a little earlier. In any case, I sealed my tunnel from the underside, with caulk after I undercoated it -which was long after I bent it until it fit reasonably tight to the floor when bolted. All this was done before the tub was put back on the frame.

The other day I was driving thru/around Dallas en route to Houston and it was like those people never saw a TR3 before. John must not get his on the freeways often. The only reason I was on the loop, was because I missed the 287 turn off. -maybe I should check for CO leaks!

 

[CJD]

Gotta ask...what was your final mileage?

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Gotta ask...what was your final mileage?

A very good question. One that I am frustrated with the answer. I have the 5-speed and know the odometer to not be correct. I set my odo to 0 at the house, and when I got to the hotel in El Paso, noted the mileage again. I have a few other data points, but did not get the same correction factor twice. The TomTom GPS doesn't keep track, and wasn't on all the time. Anyway, according to the odometer, I drove 5,063 miles. The error factor is somewhere between 1.13 and 1.148 making total mileage this trip about 5,800 miles in 12 days.

 

[CJD]

Awesome...your my hero. Especially that bit about just happening to have a spare generator 3000 miles from home!

I bet your correction is pretty close. When I drove it, it was near 8000 miles both times, but that was all the way to Seattle and over to Yellowstone with some winding in between.