1500 - water pump - and hack saw

[bigjones]

Remember, one supplier sent me the wrong plug wires? Well, a different supplier has sent me the correct head gasket - but to someone else!

So, still waiting on putting the CH back on..

Anyhoo's, I was pondering. It's difficult to install an electric fan behind the radiator because there is not much room between radiator and water pump. Above, is the original water pump - the extra length on the spindle is of course to accomodate the (now hated) fan clutch. Could a guy just hack saw off that extra length - blue arrow?

Looks like the original, Made in England, pump - it has been balanced, right? Red arrows.

Replacement pump has no such marks - is current technology such that they can now make pulleys perfectly balanced? Just wondering.

This waiting is killing me. I'm really worried about those head studs stripping out the block. I suppose it defeats the object if you oil them up prior to torquing down the nuts?

Cheers

 

[racingenglishcars]

Yes, hack the shaft off.
DON'T lube the head bolts. The block is iron. Tough stuff. If it strips, you'll just have to helicoil it.
Don't worry about balance on that pulley It's small and unbalance is the least of the forces on the bushings.

 

[dklawson]

Why not oil the head bolts/studs? I've always been taught to lube them and that is what you will find recommended on the ARP web site.

The link below is for the ARP torque page at APT.
https://www.aptfast.com/ARP_Additional_Stuff/ARP_notes_info/arp_t_specs.htm

 

[Morris]

I cut that shaft off on mine and still ended up mounting the fan in front of the radiator. I wanted to be able to get to the front of the engine without removing the radiator. Not sure what good that does me though....

Now I can't remember if the fan will mount behind once you remove that shaft.

Knock on wood... I have never had cooling problems with the fan in front.

The fan clutch I sent you should arrive today or tomorrow.

 

[bigjones]

The fan clutch I sent you should arrive today or tomorrow.

Yes, came this afternoon!
Many thanks for helping me out.
(Check your PayPal account)

Cheers!

 

[racingenglishcars]

Why not oil the head bolts/studs?

It could be that ARP wants their bolts lubed, but the recommended torque on a bolt is based on a combination of bolt shaft stretch (which itself consists of shaft diameter and material), and friction of the threads. If using a non-ARP bolt and the friction is reduced, the bolt is tightened more than specified. It may be ok, but many times not. Obviously one could risk breaking something from over torqueing but also one must remember that the bolt doesn't just pull upwards on the threads, but the threads are cut at a 30 degree angle. This can therefore easier cause rounding of the tip of the threads... Who has ever done that?

 

[jlaird]

I bet it makes no difference at all weather you lub or don't lube. I dought that the spec is quite that close a tolarance.

 

[Guest]

On studs I don't believe it'll make a difference 'cause your not tightening that end. Lubing the nuts is a different story.

 

[jlaird]

Naa, I was thinking about the nut end Kelly. I bet it does not make a difference except for ease of turning the nuts unless they are really badly rusted.

We need someone to clean up a stud and a nut and test dry, then with oil and report on what they find.

 

[Guest]

All torque figures I've seen state on a lightly oiled fastener.

 

[bigjones]

All torque figures I've seen state on a lightly oiled fastener.

Wow, that's sad.
I especially made a point of degreasing all the studs and nuts so that they were bone dry. Ha!

It has been my understanding (ie I read it on the internet, somewhere, sometime, by someone, I think) that they shouldn't be oiled because, like racingenglishcars says, you would be overtightening.

I have a feeling that the ARP stuff is an exception because ARP have specified a torque setting based on their tests and their tests were carried out with oiled studs.

Cheers

 

[Guest]

All my info comes from manuals and says to lighly oil. All this being said I nevr do. not 'cause I'm afraid of over tightening, but nuts comming loose.

THink about it, you lock tight to keep fasteners from comming loose, what would be the opposite????........oiling them, right?



Hehehehe, maybe I should lightly lube with locktight.

 

[jlaird]

Hehehehe, maybe I should lightly lube with locktight.

Is this an Oximoran (sp)

I have always lubed every bolt/nut I have ever installed. No problems yet.

 

[dklawson]

Why not send a PM to Hap and ask him to offer his advice regarding oil/dry on head fasteners?

 

[jlaird]

I expect Hap to be along. How could he stay away from this. Hehe

 

[racingenglishcars]

Hey, I should probably clarify a couple small things. First If the manufacturer recommends lubing bolts, then do so. If they don't recommend lubing then don't. Second, lightly oiling is only to prevent rust, not for actual lubrication. That would imply oiling and wiping clean. Lubrication in this case would imply heavy oil, grease or copper grease/lube. Sorry for confusion.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

I lube some internal engine high torque bolts, main bolts and studs, rod bolts, head studs (both ends) always have in those situaction, becaue dry threads are more lightly to cause and under torque than a over torque, I noramlly use 30 wt motor oil for this, if ARP, I use thier assembly lube. Other applications I use different things, on many low torque fastners in a engine I use locktite, on things that are likey to sieze from corrosion or heat I would use anti seize. Then some places I like to use different fastners than stock, for example on MG A and B series cylinder head, the factory was sleeping to use studs at the thermostat housing, I must have had to repair hundred heads here in my life for snapped studs there, I use bolts there, they will not snap. So there's my take on what I use on various fastners.

 

[bigjones]

Hap,

Thanks for that information.

What would you normally use on the head studs on a 1500 Midget and would you go back after a heat cycle and re-torque. If so, would you slightly loosen and re-torque each nut in turn, in the proper sequence. There is some debate about this.

Cheers!

 

[jlaird]

I know, I know the answer and my name is not Hap. LOL 30 Wt motor oil and never loosen till you are ready to remove. I am sure and Hap is of course the last word here, but I have never seen a change in over 5 lbs of torque from the first tightening and the retightening, and then only on a couple of studs.

In other words for a street engine it is not an issue. For an all out race engine I would even have the torque wrench certified annually.

I would bet that the chance that your wrench is off 5 lbs is greater than the chance the stud nut is off.

You do know that new cars today never have there heads retorqued from the orginal assembly. Think about that. Maybe, just maybe if it is done right the first time it does not need done agan.

However, that all said, I check em twice just because I was taught to do it that way back in the 40s.

Now when Hap says I am all wet.............

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Hap,

Thanks for that information.

What would you normally use on the head studs on a 1500 Midget and would you go back after a heat cycle and re-torque. If so, would you slightly loosen and re-torque each nut in turn, in the proper sequence. There is some debate about this.

Cheers!

I would atleast use motor oil on both ends of the studs and nuts, and there would be no need to re-oil them, as the retorque needs to be done after 1 or 2 heat cycles, so there would still be oil on the threads.