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TR2/3/3A TR3A "TRIUMPH" Letter Versions

Tropical TR

Jedi Hopeful
Offline
I am restoring my TR3A (TS52910L, EB# 51292, produced in May 1959) and hope I can get more clarity as to whether older or later style TRIUMPH letters should be used below the front badge. When I got the car, it had the smooth shiny (albeit pitted) later style letters mounted. But that doesn't mean it was the original apron/letters...

The conflicting or less than specific authorities:

- TRA Judging Standards/Restoration Guide addresses this in two locations, specifying older style letters up to TS50000 and the smooth, slim letters to be used on late model TR3A "not before TS50000."

- Bill Piggott in his "Collector's Originality Guide" states that the later style lettering was used from EB72384. That would put it way beyond TS50000.

- Moss USA specifies older style for "most TR3A" and the newer style for late TR3A-3B "change point unknown"

- TRF specifies old style ribbed letters for TR3A, TR3B and later smooth letters "used on some TR3B."

The only agreement I see from these sources is that the newer style letters did not appear BEFORE TS50000. However, it seems that they could have started well beyond that point and well beyond my TS52910L.

Or maybe the factory interspersed the usage of both styles for a while?

Any light that can be thrown on this would be appreciated, also from those who have TS numbers close to mine.

Regards,

Walter
 

Geo Hahn

Yoda
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The holes for the two styles of letters are not the same.

Thus, if your apron is drilled for the smooth letters, that would seem to indicate that is what it came with (unless someone replace the apron at some point).
 
OP
T

Tropical TR

Jedi Hopeful
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Yes, I know the difference in hole patterns and the apron it came with (gone now) was drilled for the newer style letters. Given that the apron is being replaced, I want to get the letters right, if it is possible to determine...maybe not! Thanks.
 

Geo Hahn

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Ah, I see. Looks like your best hope is to find some TS numbers close to and on each side of yours with original aprons.

If you don't find those here, you might try the email contacts on one of the registries such as this one:

https://trregistry.com/start/registry/html/TR3/

I see your car is on there, possibly with the prior owner.

Such lists see little maintenance so some of the emails may be dead - but worth a try perhaps.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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I think you might have mis-read the TRF catalog. Mine says "some very late TR3A and TR3B", which agrees reasonably well with the other sources IMO. The TRA guide is just saying that they don't know the exact changeover and aren't going to mark down, as long as you don't have smooth letters on pre-TS52k.

IMO there was some overlap (cars were not finished in commission number order and so even a clean switch on a single day resulted in some earlier numbered cars with the later parts and vice versa). However, your car almost certainly had the ribbed letters originally. For a time, only the smooth letters were available, so a lot of cars got retrofitted.

But you know what they say about opinions :smile:
 
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T

Tropical TR

Jedi Hopeful
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Hello Randall,

Opinions gladly accepted but I keep hoping there is additional documentation out there and that a few owners that bracket my TS number closely tell me what they have, and if they have original configurations....thanks.

Walter
 

TomMull

Darth Vader
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For what it's worth, mine, TS73117, has ribbed letters and original apron. To complicate the situation a bit further, there are rumors at least, that some of the later 3Bs, that invariably had smooth letters, came with no letters. Tom
 

HerronScott

Darth Vader
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Walter,

My 1959 TR3A was made May 4, 1959 and has commission number TS51339L. I'm pretty sure it has the original apron.

I'll try to make it to storage this week and let you know which type letters it has. I can't quite tell from my pictures but I *think* they are the wide ribbed ones.

Scott
 

TexasKnucklehead

Jedi Knight
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Opinions gladly accepted
Well, I've got one of those.

My car is TS44xxxL, was built in 2/10/59, so I'm wondering how TS52910L was produced in May 1959? Did you get the certificate showing the build date?

In any case, mine is wearing ribbed letters. When I got the car, it didn't have an apron at all. And it was wearing VIN# TS27xxxL -built 2/24/58. -But the body had the changes characteristic of a 1959 as well as engine, transmission, steering box, etc dating 1959, but before TS60xxx. My point is that it's hard to tell what is "right" for a car without knowing what has been changed.

Another club member has a 3B, and no holes were in the apron when he got it. He drilled some, painstakingly measuring that each was the same distance apart. Then he found that "original" lettering is not as evenly spaced as you might think (smooth or ribbed). After repainting, again he has no letters.

So, here's my opinion; Pick the ones you like best. Your car, like mine, happens to fall into a somewhat grey area, where it is possible that either could be "right".
 

HerronScott

Darth Vader
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My car is TS44xxxL, was built in 2/10/59, so I'm wondering how TS52910L was produced in May 1959? Did you get the certificate showing the build date?

My car's information matches Walter's with a TS51339L built May 4, 1959 according to my BMIHT certificate. 1959 was Triumph's best year for TR3's and 21,186 were built that year.

Scott
 

Geo Hahn

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...My car is TS44xxxL, was built in 2/10/59, so I'm wondering how TS52910L was produced in May 1959?...

Here's how:

At the end of day Wednesday, 15 April 1959 (or thereabouts) STC was on the verge of introducing several changes in the TR3As. The next car would have the long-nose starter, different flywheel, different bellhousing, etc. The thing was -- they were still quite aways from TS50000 -- I think they were somewhere around TS48000 -- but to clearly delineate the change point (and make it something memorable), they jumped to TS50000 for the next car down the line.

If you look at any sequential list of cars (like this one) you will see that gap. After my car (TS47905) the next car on the list is TS50027. There were other pre-50K cars built after mine (built around 3:00 in the afternoon) but not many.

So there was a gap in the commission number sequence and for a time engine numbers more closely aligned with commission numbers (normally engine numbers would be consistently higher).

Now you know.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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My car is TS44xxxL, was built in 2/10/59, so I'm wondering how TS52910L was produced in May 1959? Did you get the certificate showing the build date?
I believe that they actually skipped some numbers just before TS50001, due to the many mechanical changes at TS50001 (bell housing, starter, flywheel, tunnel, etc). At any rate, TS50001 was supposedly built in April 59 (according to Piggott), so May seems reasonable for TS52910.

Replacement aprons came without the holes, so they could be drilled for either type. But many people it seems didn't bother, hence all the aprons around with no holes.
 
OP
T

Tropical TR

Jedi Hopeful
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Gentlemen,

I appreciate this feedback and background information. I rechecked by BMIHT certificate and my car was built on 25 May 59. Although it had the smooth style letters going into restoration, as some have mentioned there is no way to tell what it started out with. But interestingly, it seems that quite a number of the 59-60 cars (maybe most built around the time of mine) still had the ribbed letters.

Regards,

Walter
 

PKPoole

Senior Member
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TS75348 has smooth letters. Original cowl.
 

Tinkerman

Darth Vader
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In the for what it's worth department, my post 60,000 3A apron had ribbed letters on it so thats what I put on it. I would hate to have to start from scratch to drill new holes on it.
The new emblem that I got had slightly different spacing between the holes so I had to do a little elongating to get it to fit. Was not a prob and looks great!

Cheers, Dick
 
OP
T

Tropical TR

Jedi Hopeful
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Thanks PK and Dick. Standard Motors must have had quite a supply of those ribbed letters!

Regards,

Walter
 

6TTR3A

Jedi Warrior
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TS72099 built March 1960 had ribbed pattern holes in the apron, but a PO found a set of smooth letters, cut off one of the two mounting studs, got them as close as possible and glued them on !! I didn't know what to think until I researched the difference. It spelled T R I U M P H but it looked like a website security check panel.
Frank
 
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