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Scuttle Shake

SteveHall64Healey

Jedi Trainee
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I'm told that many Healeys suffer from 'scuttle shake' in the range of 55-60 mph. My BJ8 Phase 1 has shake in the scuttle and steering wheel in the range of 54-62 mph. I have had high speed balance done on all four tires and this has improved the situation somewhat (lower intensity shake), but it has not eliminated the problem.

The run out on the 60-spoke wheels is in the range of .005 to .030", which is within the spec of .050". The Vredstein tires are approximately 6 years old with 10,000 miles. I have one broken spoke on each front wheel, but otherwise the spokes are good, tight, and with little/no corrosion. I have been contemplating replacing the wheels, but also wanted to understand what other issues might be at play in the problem.

In my reading, I came across this article on 'SOL Healeys':

"Big Healey Scuttle Shake

by Bill Bolton
TRICARB@aol.com
initial version: 14 jun 95.
The famous British `scuttle shake'. It is in all big Healeys at 55 - 60 MPH. The only cure is to stiffen the body area around the gearbox firewall area. Bad front suspension and/or unbalanced wheels will only make the shake worse but doesn't cause it.


The bug-a-boo is that Jensen spot welded the firewall to the frame and kept spacing out the spots as they built more cars to save labour costs. Geoff used to have get on them to spot weld closer together.


If you exmaine the firewall opening closely, you will find that the sheet metal is spot welded about every four inches. This allows that sheet metal to flex.


The real cure is to weld (while the engine/transmission are out) a bead the full length of the spot welded joints and then weld in 1/2" angle iron in the vertical and horizontal joints on the engine side of the transmission opening. Butt weld the angle iron at the upper left and right corners and weld them to the box frame at the lower left and right ends. You will have to relieve a bit of the angle leg to get around the starter solenoid and the two brackets holding the accelerator linkage crossbar.


This process will eliminate the scuttle shake. I have done it on three tricarbs and my BN2 with great success."

Here is the url: https://www.team.net/www/healey/tech/big_hly/body/scuttle.html

My questions:

1) Has anyone actually done this and was it successful? I've got the gearbox out, so now would be the time to do it if it is going to be done at all.

2) Are there any other factors that I should consider?

thanks,
steve
 

AJAX50

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I've stiffened the transmission tunnel joint of my BJ8 and it does make a difference. As well as the wheels you may need to have the rear brake drums balanced they can be a long way out of balance.
 

HealeyRick

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I had these modifications done when the footbox modifications were being done for my V8 conversion: https://www.britishcarweek.org/scuttle.html I have no scuttle shake. OTOH, I also have new 72 spoke Dayton wires with new tires, mounted, balanced and shaved by Allen Hendrix as well as having the rear brake drums balanced. Can't really say which one of these things worked. Before committing to the doghouse modifications, I think the most cost effective is to try the rear brake drum balance.
 

Brinkerhoff

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Steve , Its probably the easiest thing you could do at this point , if the access is there. I am fortunate in that I have no scuttle shake in my 62 tri carb, its smooth up to 80 . I did balance my rear drums on my tire bubble balancer and I had the driveshaft balanced at a specialty shop. I run a 60 spoke wheel with Michelin Z tires. I think its the design of the car where all the little things compound to give this effect. I did not install any stiffening bars per the above suggestion. Good Luck.
 
OP
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SteveHall64Healey

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Great suggestions. The drums have been balanced previously, as evidenced by the small welded plates on them. The wheels were balanced on the car, so one would think the balanced reciprocating mass would account for any imbalance which may have developed over time... Unless anyone disagrees with that, my plan would be to reinforce the transmission tunnel joint while the gearbox is out and then test (I will have to wait until April in my area) and then consider replacing the wheels if the situation is no better then.

AJAX50, can you please describe what you did when you stiffened the tunnel of your BJ8?


thanks
steve
 

TodE

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I agree with ttrotter. I am restoring my 1955 BN-1 which had shake at 55 - 60 mph. Over 65 it smoothed out before restoration. I called Allen Hendrix I dicussed at length my options. I asked about the welding of the angle iron around the transmission tunnel opening. He was not a fan of doing that, but he is in the wheel busness. (He is a good guy!) I finally sent him my wheels and brake drums and purchased new Vredstein tires from him. He balanced the drums (which were way out of balance) shaved the tires and balanced the mounted wheels.
I am just finishing up the restoration so I can not say if the shake is gone, but I am confident that it will ride smooth.

I guess if you can weld the angle iron and repaint well, you will not be able to see the mod without looking for it. What would it hurt! Second shipping will be expensive to ship wheels and drums from Canada to North Carolina!
 

drambuie

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I can only speak from my experience, When I first bought my 67 BJ8 it had serious Scuttle shake at 50 mph and above. However, after buying new tires and having the wheels all balanced it went totally away! I know for a fact my rear drums are way out of balance! And I will eventually get them balanced as well to achieve even a smoother ride. But since the new tires and wheel balance and front end alignment, I have no problem and can drive at all speeds even over 100 mph with confidence. So,I would recommend a good wheel balance, new tires, "I highly recommend Nexen tires" and front end alignment first as I did... And then balance the rear drums if needed before I would start welding all sorts of supports....seems to me if all of the above items are addressed properly and your car is tracking straight "no frame damage" you should have no problems and no need of supports.
 

me61ic

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I am restoring my car now, and would like to do everything I can to try get rid of the shake my car had. It was bought in the States in 2009 and was shipped to Barcelona (Spain) from where I drove down to Granada, some 1.000 km, it had a huge shake above 55 mph, I thought it could maybe go away above certain speed, but when trying to go faster on the highway one of the front light bezels just flew away from the car due to the INCREDIBLE SHAKE. When I got home I check the front wheels and found one of them had a broken spoke, so I thought that was the reason for the shake, but now that I read this post and having into account that I am performing a ground up restoration now, I'd like to do everything possible to get rid of the shake.

Do anyone have bigger, better resolution pictures of the modifications that have to be done to the firewall opening?

Thanks in advance
 

AJAX50

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On my BJ8 the stiffening is angle iron about 1.25 inches each way and about 0.125 of an inch thick. It's welded on the right angle that forms the square opening just back from the top part of the bulk head. The fitting is very precise and the welding is on both edges of the angle iron. I'll try to take a photograph , it' just visible from the distributor side of the engine. I've no scuttle shake and very few rattles over bumps. As has been indicated already there's no one thing that needs to be done but I'm sure the stiffening has played a part.
 

RAC68

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Steve,

Drambuie makes a good point and if you were not in an opportunistic position with engine and transmission de-installed, I would agree to address wheels, tires and drums before considering the reinforcement. However, I don’t think there is a single solution to the elimination of the shake and I would install the reinforcement had I known when I had the opportunity.

It must be remembered that, years back, this shake was referred to as the Healey’s “nasty secrete” and seldom brought up when discussing the car. In fact, most Healey owners assumed the cause of the shake was imbalanced or out-of-true wheels and very few had sufficient knowledge or even the inclination to go into a further analysis of condition. In large part, only when the internet provided many Healey owners with a medium for collaborative communication did our shared experiences bring the condition forward with some solutions that extended further then a faulty running gear.

When redoing my Healey in the mid to late ‘80s, along with the standard replacement of rubber suspension components, or repair/replacement of sills, dog legs or other rusted components that needed attention, new 72 spoke Daytons and Dunlop tires (the rear drums were not balanced) were installed. During the initial drive a straight and stable run was experienced with all shake eliminated to speeds of 90 MPH (saw no need to go faster).

Over the years the shake began to creep back slowly and, although I would consider it minor, it was felt at varied speeds higher than 55 MPH. After improving (but not perfectly) the balance of previously untouched rear break drums, installing Vredestein 165 x 15 tires, and adding an additional long leaf to each of the rear springs to improve resonator clearance on my P1, almost total recovery of initial restoration roadability and stability had been achieved (It should be noted that the Dayton wires remained untouched and in use for the past 25 years and could possibly benefit from truing for a small additional improvement).

Again, I can’t definitively say what I did that actually eliminate the shake but, looking back, I would probably have installed the reinforcement had I known about it when having the engine and transmission out of the car.

Good luck,
Ray (64BJ8P1).
 

George_Haywood

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Steve, I read all the same articles you read about scuttle shake and how to prevent it during the resto of my '65 bj8 in 2007. It was quite confusing with some saying to weld in angle iron and some saying not to. I believe the story about the factory skimping on the welds at the factory and for that reason I had angle iron welded into the scuttle opening during the restoration process. Although I never drove my car prior to the restoration I do know that I have very little if any shaking at any speed except for those times when my tires are out of round or out of balance, when I have broken spokes, when I have mud and dirt on the wheels, etc. Yes I do get mud on my wheels since I do drive in all kinds of weather. I firmly believe that good wheel tuning is the key to a smooth ride as well as having the drums balanced and Hendrix Wire Wheel is who I recommend here. Maybe Bob Yule at Autofarm would have advice for the Canadian equivalent.


Anyway I have attached a picture of my scuttle after the scuttle stiffening angle iron has been performed and painted. My body man completely welded the sheet metal around the tunnel opening with a continuous bead and then welded in the angle iron using spot welds as seen on the picture. Just make sure the angle iron doesn't interfere with installing the tranny, clutch, etc. I'm not sure how easy it will be to do that with only the tranny out however. While you are there you should also install new bushes into the throttle cross shaft as well as your as pedal bushes. These are available from British Car Specialists and maybe other vendors as well. Good luck and have fun. George

Well, I'm trying to post a picture anyway. I'll post this and post the picture later.

Scuttle support 65 BJ8.jpg
 
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CLEAH

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George,
Thanks for the illustration. That made it clear. I wonder if it would make sense to add corner gussets or some sort of triangulation. After all, scuttle shake is a lateral motion, and I'd think gussets would add strength...?
 

andrea

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the beginning of my AH restoration -I seriously considered the Anti-scuttle reinforcements -
BUT I then have prefered the originality-
The only reinforcement was on the all SIDES of the engine mounting platforms R & L
where I have find strongest signs of stress
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2yA16zQYltUtkRPrBE3ehdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sT_SewFuvanenZtbT4u-RdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
I never considered the aluminium platform for the OIL RADIATOR at extreme forward position, as chassis reinforcement
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/m21Q6MbCDs-dYy2lSe2l19MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink MAURO hard bitten all the welding points of the chassis!!
NOW the car stays on the road without any signs of scuttles, very flat and glued to the corners
 
OP
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SteveHall64Healey

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Thanks for the information everyone. Just to be clear: only the greabox is out at the moment, so I am a bit limited as to what I can do on the engine side of the firewall. I will get under the car tonight and see what's posisble with the engine still in place. Has anyone done any reinforcing with the engine still in place? I was thinking about the possibility of bolting some bracing in place...
thanks
steve
 

George_Haywood

Freshman Member
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Hugh,

The angle iron gives the lateral strength needed here I believe. Remember you first make a solid weld on all three sides of the scuttle sheet metal. Also there may not be enough room to add triangular bracing--it's a very tight squeeze getting the tranny back in. It may too close in there anyway with the engine in place.

George
 
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BoyRacer

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I think that welding in 3 pieces of angle iron is a waste of time. The tunnel opening has a flat panel that is not "spot" welded but is stitch welded at appropriate intervals. If there is a lateral shake, this panel is more than adequate to stop such lateral movement. It is what is called installed "in shear". If there were any such stresses in this panel caused by scuttle shake, that is....lateral movement, there would be cracks in the welds and/or other signs of extreme stress in this panel. There are no cracks or any other signs that these panels 'in shear" have ever been stressed. No one has ever reported this condition.

If your rear brake drums are out of balance, which they usually are, it will cause the entire car to shake. And, this shaking is felt most notably in the scuttle.

I have been driving and racing my 1959 3000 BN7 for almost 40 years. I have no reinforcement of any kind to the scuttle. I have rear wheel disc brakes (no drums) that I installed in the early 90's. I have never had scuttle shake after going with the rear disc brakes.
 

BoyRacer

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I want to add something because I have a feeling that my statement about a panel being installed "in shear" may be lost on some. Which means this discussion will continue to go on and on and on, forever. Hopefully, we can put this question to rest forever. , .

Imagine building a bookcase with no lateral support, that is, with no back panel. The bookcase will rack from side to side. This is analogous to scuttle shake. Add a 1/8" thick piece of plywood, or masonite, as a back panel "in shear" to the bookcase and it will no longer rack from side to side.

You can add some angle iron braces to the bookcase but I don't think it's really necessary.
 

andrea

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ONLY a note - Flat iron triangle are worthless, triangles must be strengthened by a fold , welding must be continuous
 
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