Theoretical question for the Rolls-Royce experts

Doc and Silverghost, this is primarily for y'all, but anyone else who can chime in is welcome...

A while ago I'd asked, "why are Rollers so darn pricey to maintain?" and you'd all been very helpful in letting me in on a little of the esoterica. I've found a <span style="font-style: italic">little </span>info on the web, like how the Spirit pneumatic system works (egad :shocked: ,) but it seems like info on Rolls mechanicals isn't exactly free-flowing on the Web. A tight-lipped bunch, it seems.

I suppose this is sort of a follow-up to my initial curiosity. Are there <span style="font-style: italic">any </span>good websites that go in-depth into the nuts-and-bolts of Rolls mech and tech? Just asking because I love the darn things and want to learn as much as I can about the ugly, greasy-wrench side of them that no one seems to want to talk about.

I have another question that's been on my mind for awhile. I'll <span style="font-style: italic">never </span>be able to afford a Rolls Royce of <span style="font-style: italic">any </span>vintage whatsoever, so this is just pure brain-candy theory. Of all the Rolls (and let's include Bentley) models throughout the years, if one were to graph the initial cost of purchase today versus the cost of ongoing maintenance, which model would result in the lowest total expenditure? (This is assuming an initial purchase of a mechanically sorted example, maybe a little cosmetically scruffy, but not a project car.)

Spirits, it seems, are the low end at initial purchase, but yearly upkeep can double or treble that figure. A Cloud may cost more initially, but do the simpler mechanicals offset that cost? Does it follow that the most cost-efficient car in the long term would actually be a 20/25 saloon?

Thanks for indulging me in a little flight of mental fancy.

The one beside our MGB:

Design evolution.

From what I've seen the most cost efficient to purchase is one that has been dealer maintained all it's life, regardless of purchase price which will be high.
I think this has to do with; Repairs are so expensive that some people will try to shortcut. This leads to repairs that cost double to repair correctly.

I think a reason there are few resources for in-depth information has to do with the lack of aftermarket parts. There used to be a firm "Appleyard of Leeds" who sold parts, but now the market seems to be cornered by "Flying Spares".

Then comes that little problem of "the most cost-efficient car in the long term".
If you were looking for cost efficient, don't go for a Rolls/Bentley. (OK, maybe a late 40's/early 50's Bentley MKIV being the first "factory" bodied cars)

The Real Car Co seems to have some cool stuff for sale.

I think you'll find more technical information can be found at either the RROC or RREC sites, although I'm not sure how much is available for public access and how much is in the member archives. I was thinking I wanted a Silver Shadow - I think their styling is classic and timeless - but was advised to set aside $750 a month for maintenance. Ouch. Further research seemed to indicate the mid to late 80's Silver Spurs were the least demanding of the later generations of Rollers but I don't care for them aesthetically. I still look at the Silver Shadows as a small part of me is still unconvinced it's a bad idea to own one. LoL As stated above, look for a car with as complete a service history as possible. These cars can be exceptionally demanding but a car in proper working order will serve it's owner dutifully.

Oops -- of course in my original post when I refer to the <span style="font-style: italic">Spirit</span> as the low end of the resale spectrum, I meant the <span style="font-style: italic">Shadow</span>. (Still get turned around a little with the RR nomenclature.)

From what I've seen, the bulk of the RROC website is members-only. How exclusionistic of them. :wink:

The Real Car Co. was the primary impetus for the post, actually. Every once in awhile you run across a D-back 20/25hp or Wraith listed there that starts to look priced in the range of the average human. Proceeding from the assumption that older is simpler and more robust, of course.

I've not looked hard at post-Shadow models, as most haven't depreciated enough for me. If the Spurs are more reasonable in the upkeep, the extra cost up-front may offset the cantankerousness of Shadow ownership. I'll have to look at that. (Remember this is just a mental exercise and purely for fun. For now.)

I don't really find any RR unattractive, really. I even think Camargues are cute.

I've heard from more than one source that the Mk IV Bentley was exceptionally solid.

One of my neighbours has a mid-80s Bentley. I'm not sure of the exact year.

He seems to just drive it around like a normal daily driver.
I see it all the time at the supermarket, the post office, WalMart, etc.

To me, a car that size would be too big to enjoy driving plus a bit rough on gas.
About the biggest, thirstiest classic I would want would be an XJ6.

They're all <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">solid</span></span>. Built like aircraft but over-engineered and over-built. If three bolts would do the job, they use twelve. Stamped steel parts? naahh... CAST 'em!

The philosophy was to build an heirloom, a vehicle to be passed down to following generations, part of the estate and stables. They didn't anticipate the tech curve, though, IMHO.

Don't misunderstand, I like the lumps. They've made me some money over the last thirty years.

Well, THAT's interesting...some online "research" at ebay.co.uk shows some very affordable Spirits/Spurs. Looks like the Shadows are starting to move more into the collectible realm: their prices are almost in the Clouds (ouch, sorry.) The early Spirits are now the ones at the bottom of the depreciation curve, it seems.

Works for me! More dream-fodder.

Here's a question right atcha, Doc, as a genuine wrench-spinner: How much of the astronomical upkeep on a Rolls is paying the qualified mechanic (who knows what he's doing) to do the labor? The online assumption is if one <span style="font-style: italic">owns </span>a RR, one doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">work </span>on it oneself. I'd read that RR parts are designed to be rebuilt, rather than just replaced outright. True? Just how much can be saved realistically, if a patient mechanically-inclined owner with plenty of time and the proper shop manuals, rebuilds components himself as needed, or sources his replacements from a "breaker?"

If the cars <span style="font-style: italic">themselves </span>aren't fragile...is the regular maintenance what kills the bank account? Heck, if I paid someone else to change the oil, lube the chassis, align the wheels and adjust the valves on my Midget, it'd be a money-hole too. (I know, no comparison!) How far can a conscientious owner go to do the work himself?

Oh, by the way... for indulging me. I know it's a bit of a time-waster, answering inane questions just to assuage my curiosity. I really do appreciate it!

BillT said:

The online assumption is if one owns a RR, one doesn't work on it oneself.

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Yeah, what used to be called "the cardigan and penny loafer crowd"... pffft! :smirk:

Most of the upkeep expense would be labour. Parts are dear but as you note, most are repairable. The electrics are Genuine Lucas, many made exclusively for Rolls but many also are 'generic', i.e. a Lucas switch that fits an MGB, re-boxed in a gray/red package in RR trade dress and priced three time as much as the MG one. Remove the burl walnut facia "cover" and you're lookin' at an aircraft instrument panel, everything held in place with slot-head screws. GM transmissions. Carbs were hulkin' big SU's, actually FUN to synch four of 'em on a V-8 car. The first of the injected cars used the Bosch CIS systems (which I very much like), later they went to direct port EFI. The engines are VERY stout, you'd have to <span style="font-style: italic">deliberately</span> abuse it to do harm. Armed with a manual and some mechanical aptitude it would be no different than owning a same-vintage Lincoln.

The biggest issue I've found is in <span style="font-style: italic">undoing</span> what some jackleg mechanics would do to 'em to "save" the owner some money or make the job pay 'em more. Fixing them properly is time consuming due to the complexity. The brake system is a good example; mineral oil is the hydraulic medium. It's under constant high pressure, valved to the devices with pedal/valve application. Pumps are driven via the camshaft and accumulators modulate it. And it ties into the load leveling system, too. Complex and confusing to the average Chevy wrench.

Lots of servos to regulate air flow in the cab, flaps and vents all over the thing. A Cessna 172 has a less sophisticated cabin venting scheme. :wink:

I would have no issue owning a late '60's or '70's model, but they're just too durn'd BIG.

What's sad to me is that the RROC and RREC USED to be guys like the members here who liked these old cars and relied on each other to keep them running. The Flying Lady was the RROC publication the members wrote technical articles for on how to maintain and service these old cars because there weren't mechanics who could service them anymore. Unfortunately it's not like that any more.

I struck internet gold! There's a "splinter group" of Rolls owners that broke off of the Australian RROC, that work on the cars themselves and are devoted to uncovering the truth behind the mechanical esoterica. Good news; they've been producing a newsletter since 2000. Better news; it's all online!! Tee-One Topics has weeks' worth of fun reading. Pictures of the grimy bits, descriptions of overhauling stuff, and explanations of how and why things work the way they do.

I finally "get" the hydraulic system! It makes so much <span style="font-style: italic">sense </span>now. Complicated? Not really, just different. If I had the money, and a garage, and a lift, and a full kit of tools, I'd have a Shadow II on the boat from England right now.

But I don't, on all counts. Sigh.

Bill said:

I finally "get" the hydraulic system! It makes so much sense now. Complicated? Not really, just different. If I had the money, and a garage, and a lift, and a full kit of tools, I'd have a Shadow II on the boat from England right now.

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:lol:

Shadows or Shadow-II's show up for low money more than ya think, too. Just be prepared to beat yer brains out on it to sort all the sins committed by PO's. IMHO a seized engine would be the only deal killer (rust not withstanding). :wink:

Stuff like brake fluid in the hydraulic system.

Hydraulic pump push-rods wear, accumulators leak, load leveling switches disconnected from their actuating rods, held "up" with wire or coat-hanger... we had a Wall of Sin to depict the myriad of bodges we found over years.

One of our club members has a very nice Silver Cloud that has been down for about a year because of the power steering pump. He decided that it would only be fixed with an original pump which is $$$$ of dollars. I am sure there must be a GM that could get him running. I was told that the early sixties cars copied a lot of GM parts. Anybody know ??

Jerry

Yup!!! It's a GM pump. Same "can", pulley may need swapping tho.

If I'm not mistaken, the auto trans in Clouds is a GM Turbo400......

Yup. Lots of that. A P/S pump from an auto supply house oughta be around $35. When Rolls boxed, it's Unobtanium. :wink:

DrEntropy said:

Yup. Lots of that. A P/S pump from an auto supply house oughta be around $35. When Rolls boxed, it's Unobtanium. :wink:

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The trick is knowing what to tell the mindless mental morons behind the computer you need!

An unusually large crop of Shadows on fleabay this week, coincidentally. Fun browsing! Prices are rock-bottom, and the views under the bonnets are frightening... :shocked: A single glance tells volumes -- I'm guessing that no properly maintained Rolls would <span style="font-style: italic">ever </span>have a ratty engine bay. There's just too much to do under there! If the parts you <span style="font-style: italic">can </span>see are that cruddy, just imagine the state of the lines, spheres, rat-trap and final drive support! (hee hee -- I'm using new words. Whee!)

Surprising, too, how many are shiny on the outside, only with peeling wood and thrashed leather inside.

Doc, did Shadows succumb to the same safety quagmire that impacted MGBs, etc, in 74? And like MGBs are the better years 68 and earlier?