A little ignition help needed

rcufley

Senior Member

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• Dec 21, 2011

• #1

Guess I am in need of a little assistance. I have a 1980 1500 Spitfire. Last summer I went for a short drive and the little engine quit in the middle of an intersection. After trying to restart several times with no success, a local police officer was kind enough to help me push the car to the curb without issuing me a ticket for blocking traffic . Well it is winter and I thought I would try to get the little bugger running again. I have replaced the spark plugs, plug wires, Distrib Cap and rotor. I tried restarting and get the same results. It turns over and tries to start but will not. It will fire off on a cyl. just enough to disengage the starter motor. I removed the Distrib Cap and turned the engine over and it looks like the points spark but only intermitantly. The Coil appears to be putting out enough voltage,,,,I assume. Does anyone have any ideas of what may be wrong?? Thanks for any input.

Bob

 

Geo Hahn

Yoda

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• Dec 21, 2011

• #2

rcufley said:

...I have replaced the spark plugs, plug wires, Distrib Cap and rotor...

Click to expand...

If you have not replaced (or at least closely inspected) the points I would certainly take a look there.

Even a lousy set of points will spark some when you open them -- doesn't necessarily mean they are good.

 

Rhodyspit75

Jedi Knight

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• Dec 21, 2011

• #3

Try spraying starting fluid into the carb. If it fires up then it is most likely fuel related and not ignition. A 1980 US Spitfire should have an electronic ignition unless it has been changed. Someone must have gone back to points at sometime. If starting fluid does not help take a sparkplug out and ground it while turning the engine over you should see a good spark at the electrode. Make sure you don't hold onto the plug while you are doing this.

 

OP

rcufley

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• Dec 21, 2011

• #4

Thanks Geo. I'll give that a try and see what happens.

 

D

Deleted member 8987

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• Dec 21, 2011

• #5

To tel if you have adequate spark (and no points issues or failed condensor), pull the coil wire out of the cap, have an assistant crank the engine (neutral, handbrake set) while holding the end of the high-tension lead about 3/8" or so from the head or block. If you have good, strong, continuous "zap-zap-zap", all that is good. Really sounds like points and condensor...ALWAYS change both (too many years of fixing cars for folks who only changed one) based upon A) sparking at points and B) only occasionally.
Dave.

 

OP

rcufley

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• Dec 21, 2011

• #6

Looks like I'll be off to get a can of starting fluid as I took the plugs out of cyl's 2, 3 & 4 and they all have a good strong spark. Thanks for the suggestion Rhody!
Bob

 

OP

rcufley

Senior Member

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• Dec 22, 2011

• #7

Well.. tried the starter fluid... did not start. Took the coil wire off the distrib cap and saw strong "Zaps" when turning engine over. Guess I'll try the points and condensor next and see what happens. Seems kind of strange to me that it could be the points that might be bad seeing good spark at the spark plugs yesterday. Oh well, I assume they need changing anyway. I'll let you guys know what happens when I get them changed. Thanks again for the feed back and I wish you all a Merry Christmas!!
Bob

 

T

TFB

Jedi Knight

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• Dec 22, 2011

• #8

If you have good spark at the plugs,and it doesnt fire on starting fluid,I would check timing,both cam and ignition.
If you observe your intake valve for #1 cylinder just closing,with crank at tdc,you can be pretty sure that the timing chain didnt jump.then rotate crank one more full revolution to put #1 on compression stroke.Rotor should point to number one plug wire,and you can static time.
BTW ,Randall made a good point in another post about being able to observe #1 valves/rockers ,by looking thru valve cover breather cap,if its in the front.
Also a quick look at point contact faces should tell you if the problem is related to points or condenser.
have fun
Tom

Then chek that

 

T

TFB

Jedi Knight

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• Dec 22, 2011

• #9

Bob,Sorry,should have said "intake just opening,exhaust just closing.
Tom

 

Rhodyspit75

Jedi Knight

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• Dec 22, 2011

• #10

Bob, grab your distributor and see if you can turn it. If you can it may have slipped out of time. Then you would want to static time it and get it running enough to use a timing light.

 

KVH

Darth Vader

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• Dec 22, 2011

• #11

Whenever my first old TR stalled or stopped suddenly, it was the fuel. To me, it would seem that it's a fuel issue for you as well, but it's guesswork from here. Perhaps it could be the condenser; we've seen that play out in other cases.

But sudden stopping, and dry cranking without a start certainly sounds like fuel. Once for me it was the arm of my fuel pump that had come off its pin. Another time it was a clogged fuel line. Another time a problem with the floats.

I don't know how starting fluid works, or whether it's foolproof, but maybe you eliminated doubts when you tried that.

Be sure, of course, that all plug and coil wires are tight and secure. And definitely watch that wire that leads from the ignition to the coil. A loose wire there can really cause some fits, because it can be "on" now and "off" later.

 

dklawson

Yoda

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• Dec 22, 2011

• #12

A 1980 has points? I thought they were electronic ignition by then?

 

OP

rcufley

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• Dec 24, 2011

• #13

Thanks to all for the great suggestions. I will get back to work on the little bugger after the first of the year (daughter and grandson coming from Ca. for Christmas). I am sure the original distrib was electronic. However, by the time I got this car someone had swaped it out for the point type distrib.
Thanks again everyone and a very Merry Christmas to all!!

 

B

Bob_TR6

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• Dec 25, 2011

• #14

As I recall, the 1980 had a ballasted ignition system (originally).

Based on "It will fire off on a cyl. just enough to disengage the starter motor", is the ballast wire in place, etc?

Good luck.

BobH

 

dklawson

Yoda

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• Dec 26, 2011

• #15

Rcufley says "originally electronic ignition, now has points", BobH says "would have been ballast". The two don't go together. To the best of my knowledge, late BL cars either had ballast ignitions with points or they had 12V electronic ignitions.

The "fire off one cylinder just enough to disengage the starter motor" comment is the same one that I noticed which implies a ballast ignition system where the ballast supply wire is damaged or missing.

 

B

Bob_TR6

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• Dec 26, 2011

• #16

dklawson:

As I recall my 1980 1500 had electronic ignition as well as a ballasted coil.

I think that the point was to get a hotter spark than the coil would normally provide while cranking, and then revert to a 'normal' spark while running? I can't see why an electronic ignition would affect the output and ratings of the coil.

Wiring diagram here:

https://www.triumphspitfire.com/wiring.html

But (of course) I may be wrong.

BobH

 

dklawson

Yoda

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• Dec 27, 2011

• #17

Bob, I will have to do some digging and give this some thought. I see what you mean about the wiring. It is a very unique looking arrangement. It is also the only place I have seen both electronic ignition and ballast coil wiring.

Thanks for posting the link.

 

Rhodyspit75

Jedi Knight

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• Dec 27, 2011

• #18

The electronic ignition Spitfires have a ballast wire or resistor. When the solonoid is engaged 12 volts is provided to the coil thru contacts in the solonoid. When the key returns to the run position the power to the coil is supplied thru the ballast resistor.
Since rcufley's car has been changed to a points distributor, it's very possible other wiring has been changed also.

 

dklawson

Yoda

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• Dec 27, 2011

• #19

I understand the basics of ballast ignitions. However, what's shown in the 1980 schematic is VERY different from your typical ballast ignition setup with points.

With "normal" Lucas ballast ignitions the resistor (or resistor wire) connects to coil (+) along with the white/yellow wire from the solenoid. The other side of the resistor connects to the ignition switch. However, in the 1980 schematic the white/yellow is the only connection to coil (+) with the resistor wire connected to the same solenoid terminal as the white/yellow wire. The other end of the pink/white resistor wire is connected to the "drive resistor" circuit.

Since I have not worked with Lucas electronic ignitions I am not in a position to suggest what could/would happen if something failed in the drive resistor circuit or even what that circuit does.

 

B

Bob_TR6

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• Dec 27, 2011

• #20

Hi Doug:

I think some of the problems may be the switchover point from EID to CEI ignitions.

(I used to remember all of this stuff, really, I did--when I had a spit)

The EID was up to...like...78? (=box on the distributor). The last few years were CEI--basically a gm 4-pin ignition module stuffed in a box (mounted on the firewall or fender) (with an added with a diode and a resistor)..(if I recall). I'm pretty sure that both systems used a ballast (just a high resistance wire), but the EID had an added big resistor (The drive resistor, I think), too--that the CEI didn't have...And that was sometimes left after a retrofit.

To further confuse, I believe that there was a recall/retrofit (change EID to CEI) that was done with varying degrees of completeness.

I'm still looking through all of my...stuff...to see if I can find the recall/retrofit info as well as the 'real' (official) wiring diagram.

I know when I was trying to figure out my '80 1500, there were several wires that were surplus. But still had power, etc. :frown:

BobH