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TR2/3/3A tr3 engine cooling

bluemiata90

Jedi Trainee
Offline
I just received my latest copy of British Motoring from Moss motors and in it under readers letters, a letter titled "Value Guide" refered to simple modifications to eliminate overheating. What are these modifications and which ones are the best to reduce hot running engines.? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

Dave Russell

Yoda - R.I.P
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Hi Scott,
The article refers to the original sleeved type thermostat. It gives somewhat more effective cooling than the general replacement type thermostat, because as Rich Wagner says, it prevents the coolant from bypassing the radiator. It also costs more. See here:
Item 10 - Original type thermostat with sleeve.
https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29120

I think maybe the radiator ducting he is refering to is shown here? See items 95 & 99:
https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29121

I don't know about the fans. The TRA that he refers to is "Triumph Register of America"
https://www.triumphregister.com/

Likely, someone else on this forum can help more than I can.
D
 

sammyb

Luke Skywalker
Offline
The two best mods I did to my '59 TR3 when I lived in Houston were:
1)Install a catch tank -- TR3s puke coolant out to the ground on hot days like an 18 year old college freshman girl after her first frat party. Unless you refill your radiator frequently, you're running without enough coolant on hot days.

2)Red Line Water Wetter -- crazy enough, this snake oil actually works!!! It's cheap too -- drops temp by 10-15 degrees, which on a hot day, can make a world of difference.
 

txtr3

Member
Country flag
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[ QUOTE ]

1)Install a catch tank ...


[/ QUOTE ]

I've wondered about doing this, but I haven't seen any good instructions on it. How/where did you mount it?

I was a little surprised when I first saw that little hose dumping coolant out on the driveway!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

Alan_Myers

Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi,

The first thing to do is make sure you have a thermostat in the car. Sometimes they are removed in an effort to improve cooling. But that actually makes matters worse in these engines. Without a thermostat, the coolant flows through too quickly and isn't adequately cooled.

If you have a thermostat, is it the right kind? Modern style thermostats don't work right in this system, although there are ways they can be used. The problem is, the original thermostat (rare and expensive) has a sleeve that partly blocks the bypass when it opens, as the car warms up. Without that sleeve, the bypass continues to allow too much coolant by when warmed up, and routes a lot of hot coolant right back into the engine.

If you can track down an original style thermostat, this is often the best solution, but will likely be pricey. Try to get a "summer" type, which is about 160-167 F. "Standard" type at about 180 F would be okay, too, probably. Try to avoid the "winter" type, which is around 200 F.

It's possible to use a modern (and much, much cheaper) thermostat. One method is to partially block the bypass by inserting something solid into the bypass hose that has a 1/4" hole to let a little coolant pass through all the time, but forces most of it to go through the radiator. Another method completely blocks the bypass with some sort of plug, then drill a few small holes in the thermostat to allow some coolant to pass whiles it's still closed. Or, a combination of the two methods can be done (smaller hole in the bypass and only one or two in the thermostat).

The next thing to check if the right cap is on your radiator. It should be a 4 lb. psi cap, but also check that the seal goes deep enough to seat inside the neck of the radiator filler hole. I think it's about 1". There are some aftermarket auto parts suppliers that specify too short a cap that doesn't seal well. One of those will lead to problems, the system needs some pressure to cool properly.

Next thing you might want to do is a radiator flush. This can be done with products bought at local auto parts stores, but be careful disposing of the coolant.


Be sure that fresh, adequate anti-freeze is in the system, probably a 50/50 mix. Avoid tap water, too, use distilled instead, to help prevent calcification in the system. I also highly recommend Redline's Water Wetter. It's very effective. (Note: Even though Water Wetter says it can be used with just water, never use pure water in a TR engine cooling system. If the gaskets at the bottom of the cylinder sleeves are the steel type, they will very rapidly rust and fill the coolant system with brown crud!)

The best way to install a radiator catch tank is to pick up a used one off a late model car at a junkyard. Look for the type that seals the radiator (you'll need a different type cap on the rad once the tank is installed, designed to allow coolant to pass more freely) and uses the pressure-type cap on the catch tank itself. Try to get a tank with a bracket that you can use to mount it in your car.

The cheapo tanks sold at many parts stores for $10-20 with snap on caps are pretty much just overflow tanks, not "header" tanks that more efficiently catch the coolant and return it to radiator.

Next, look for a place under the hood of your car where the tank will be mounted slightly higher than the radiator. You'll need to run a hose to the radiator, that attaches to the bottom of the tank. The tank itself will also likely have some sort of overflow. Keep the tank about half full of your coolant mix.

On a hot day, the radiator might push more into the tank, when it cools it's pulled back into the radiator. A major benefit is that air is well purged from the system.

My early TR4 has the long neck radiator, just like TR3/3A, and I've never actually had an overheating problem (knock on wood!). Until recently it's had the original, wimpy 4-bladed fan and the motor has modifications such as a milled head, porting, a pair of Webers and an exhaust header. When I was driving it, it was at high altitude, 6000 ft. or higher., and some Summer driving was in 90-100 degree temps. All of this sounds like an ideal opportunity for overheating. But it never happened.

However, a few pinhole leaks developed in the radiator so I recently it rebuilt at a local shop and they said it was pretty clean. It had been flushed at least once in the 25 years I've owned the car. I have always used a good-fitting radiator duct, at first the cardboard original one and, when that fell apart, a homemade aluminum duct. I've now got a larger, 6 bladed "flex fan" installed on the car, but am considering replacing it with one of the eight-bladed yellow plastic fans sold by The Roadster Factory and others, original to the TR250/TR5. I don't have a supplementary electric fan on the car, but a "pusher" type could be hidden inside the radiator duct.

Other things that can contribute to overheating include the hoses, check that they are in good shape with none collapsing and reducing flow. Especially look at those running too and from the heater, as they make some bends that might cause problems.

I recommend the book by Roger Williams, "Improving TR2, 3, 4 & 4A" for more ideas about preventing overheating. If anything, TRs like to run on the cool side!
 
OP
bluemiata90

bluemiata90

Jedi Trainee
Offline
I want to thank everybody for their wealth of information on this subject. It just so happens that the TR3 that I'm restoring is an original owner vehicle with less then 50000 miles on it and it has the original thermostat in it already. I took it out and placed it in a pan of water and brought it to a boil and it opened up as it should, so I'm assuming it's still good. I'l just replace it when the engine is rebuilt. thanks again.
I must add, Sammyb, very descriptive image of coolent overflowing. I remember that image from many years ago in college. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
Scott
 

Geo Hahn

Yoda
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Good info Alan. I have never put a catch tank on the TR3A just because that big header tank offers a lot of excess and I don't like how they look with a non-original bottle mounted up high. I have added a TR4A overflow bottle to the TR4 as it is a late version with no neck on the radiator.

In the summer I live at 7,000' about 10 miles north of Tucson, so my drives often end up in 100+ heat followed by a 5,000' climb up a mountain road. Pretty good work-out for a cooling system. Here are some other things I have done...

Air Dam -- added to scoop air against the lower third of the radiator. Ever notice that a big hunk of the radiator isn't in the air flow? I think this helps a lot at speed.

Electric Fan -- installed as a 'pusher' in addition to the stock fan. I control it with a manual switch, mainly used at long stoplights and slow traffic. It is the cheapo from the FLAPS and installed using a set of clamping bolts so it can be easily removed. Wired into the horn circuit w/o a relay -- never been a problem.

Water Wetter -- added to the coolant. Added bonus(?) is that it will find any little leaks you have.

25% Coolant -- as I am not concerned about freezing I can reduce the % of coolant to what is supposedly a more efficient mix for cooling.

Blocked Bypass Hose -- controversy here as some think this can cause problems with the head. I have used this for 20 years w/o such problems.

Ductwork in place -- the stock cardboard air deflector is in place in the front apron.

Fan Blade -- I'm using a TR4 (square ended) fan blade on the TR3A (stock is rounded ends).

There are 2 things I haven't done: 1) Change the TR3A radiator to one w/o a crank hole. I still use the crank and prefer to keep the original set-up. 2) Other thing is an up-graded water pump I have heard about but not pursued.

All this assumes that the radiator and block are clean and engine tuning, esp timing, are correct.
 

Alan_Myers

Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi,

You've added more good info! I'd forgotten about the crank hole in some TR3/3A radiators (and a few TR4). That will definitely make a difference since it probably reduces the rad's capability by 10 or 20%. Of course, it's usually not a cheap/quick/easy fix to swap out a radiator, so maybe that's why I didn't think of it to include in my earlier post.

Are you sure about the reduced anti-freeze ratio? I'd heard 50/50 was optimal for cooling (as well as reducing the chance of a frozen system in colder climes, of course). Do you have any concerns about reducing the anti-corrosion and lubricating properties of the coolant mix, with the lower AF ratio?

Although anti-freeze increases the coolant mix's boiling point and helps reduce overheating, some racing venues prohibit its use in cooling systems, to prevent slippery spills on the track in the event of a crash or other radiator failure. I think that's where Water Wetter originally came from, since water by itself is less efficient than the anti-freeze mixture. (Personally, I'd only use plain water with or without Water Wetter if I were absolutely certain the figure 8 gaskets were aluminum or copper, not steel, *and* if the system was drained and flushed often... like after each race weekend.)

Yes, the long header tank was carried over from the TR3/3A on the first 9552 TR4s. It's helpful keeping air out of the top of the rad/top hose. If completely topped up, expansion will push some coolant out of the tank and onto the driveway, unless an overflow tank is installed. Coolant in the neck is usually, what, 1/2" to 1" below the top?

With a true expansion tank, fitted slightly above the top level of the radiator, you eliminate that airspace, to help insure all air is kept out of the system and modestly increasing the overall coolant capacity. On TR3s I've usually seen tanks mounted on the firewall, on the passenger side. Unfortunately, this certainly doesn't look very original.

I also forgot to mention that there are at least two types of expansion tanks on later model cars. One has smaller inlets/outlets, usually about the same size as the overflow hose barb on the TR's radiator. The other type takes a larger hose, approx. 3/4 to 1" diameter. This latest type tank would probably require a fitting of similar size be brazed or welded onto the radiator.

Again, when adding a true expansion tank (as opposed to a simple overflow catch tank), the radiator's cap is removed and replaced with a type that seals on the top edge of the hole, allows free flow of coolant to and from the tank. And, the tank itself uses the pressure relief type cap that was formerly fitted to the radiator.

Now that you mention it, I think my TR4 has had a TR3A round-end fan on it all these years! Never gave me any problems (whew!). Broken fans that holed the radiators knocked two out of three TRs out of LeMans during one of the early factory efforts. They finally got smart during a pit stop and removed the third car's fan, since it really served no purpose at an average speed of 110 mph!

Other cooling improvement options I didn't mention before:

Wrap tubular headers and/or exhaust pipe to help reduce underhood temps. This is relatively low cost and easy, but will likely make covered areas of header/pipe run hotter and wear out a lot faster. Stainless exhaust components will last longer and can be more completely and effectively covered, but add a lot more cost.

Along the same lines, ceramic coating on an exhaust header, if one is being used, can help keep heat in the pipes and reduce underhood temps. This adds $100-150 to the cost of a header, but increases it's life expectancy. It can be done to older, used tube headers provided they are reasonably sound and has the added benefit of improved exhaust flow due to smooth-coating the inside, as well.

Improved venting for the engine bay can help alot, too. Old TR4 racers used to use hood pins and/or spacers to create a small gap at the rear of the hood, but that looks pretty funky and may cause other problems (oil on the windshield for example!) The "factory" method was a pair of triangular vents just behind the 4's front wheel arch on each side. I've never liked the looks of these, so am planning fender louvers a bit farther up and back on my TR4 restoration project. These will be less obtrusive and should give about as good, maybe even better cooling.

I'm not sure if this sort of thing could be done on a TR3/3A, though. I have seen hood louvers used on 3s, but that has to be done pretty carefully and not overdone, or it might cause more problems than it solves.

An aluminum radiator is quite a bit more efficient than the stock brass type, plus offers weight reduction. But it's usually pretty expensive, may not look original and you have to be sure to use compatible anti-freeze (thankfully most is safe with aluminum, these days). Copper is even more efficient, but rarely seen and heavy.

There are high performance water pumps or impellors available, improved to move more coolant. Check with the British vendors like Cambridge, Revington and Racestorations. Someone is probably importing them into the US, maybe British Frame and Engine. This might not be too expensive, if just the impellor is replaced in your existing water pump. Also, water pump bodies are also being produced in aluminum, intended for weight reduction primarily, but will transfer more heat itself.

A side note about installing a TR water pump: Assuming an original-type ceramic seal is being used in a new or rebuilt pump, the coolant should not be fully replaced immediately. The water pump is supposed to be run dry for 30 or 45 seconds, to give the seal a chance to properly seat. If this is not done, i.e. the coolant level is completely topped up before the engine is started and the ceramic seal has seated, it will probably never fully seat and likely will seep a bit of coolant for all it's useful life and possibly shorten bearing life.

An exception to this is a pre-seated seal, where the water pump has been briefly run on a bench before installation, or if a different type of seal is used (check with the vendor). I have to admit I learned this trick the hard way, spoiling a freshly rebuilt water pump in the process. That was back in the days when we bought them cheap from the local Massey Ferguson dealer!

Another option is an oil cooler. Oil contributes a lot to keeping engine temps under control. A 10 or 13 row model will do on all but the most highly modified TR 4-cylinder engines. Kits are available from the major US vendors, but I've found it's usually cheaper to just pick up a Mocal unit (that's what is in most kits), the hoses of your choice and a sandwich plate. This does require you remove the stock oil filter cannister and replace it with a spin-on adapter and filter. When using a cooler, an oil thermostat is pretty much mandatory. Otherwise the oil can be overcooled to the point where contaminants aren't properly boiled off and vented during driving. I see where Mocal has a sandwich plate now with a built-in thermostat... a great idea! Racerpartswholesale.com, Summit Racing and Pegasus Racing are good sources for these items.

Revington TR has a passive alternative to an oil cooler. They weld a couple air tubes into the stock sump pan, running from front to rear. These allow air to pass through whenever the car is in motion and help keep the oil temperature down. Two possible drawbacks of this setup are that there is no way to thermostatically control the cooling effect (unless you really complicate matters with some sort of "gate" controlled by a thermostat). And, to be most effective, matching air pipes need to be installed in the frame cross member directly in front of the oil sump. Still, it's an elegantly simple idea and creative alternative!

I mentioned a pusher fan hidden under the radiator duct. Looking up R. Williams' ideas in the "Improving TR" book, he likes rear mounted puller fans better, feels they are less vulnerable. Of course, an electric puller fan doesn't look very original and installng one means the original fan must be removed from the front of the engine. Note: If that's done, only the fan itself and its hardware should be removed. The hub extension should probably stay in place because it provides some dampening on the crankshaft.

Cheers!
 

Dave Russell

Yoda - R.I.P
Gold
Offline
Hi Alan,
You make some very good points which I agree with. There are a couple of exceptions.
----------------
Quote: "Are you sure about the reduced anti-freeze ratio? I'd heard 50/50 was optimal for cooling (as well as reducing the chance of a frozen system in colder climes, of course). Do you have any concerns about reducing the anti-corrosion and lubricating properties of the coolant mix, with the lower AF ratio?"
----------------
Water has a thermal conductivity of about 0.6 watts/m/degree C. Glycol has a thermal conductivity of about 0.25. A 50/50 mix has a thermal conductivity of about 0.41. Thus the heat transfer ability of pure water is almost 50% better than a 50/50 mix of water & glycol.
---------------
Quote: "An aluminum radiator is quite a bit more efficient than the stock brass type, plus offers weight reduction. But it's usually pretty expensive, may not look original and you have to be sure to use compatible anti-freeze (thankfully most is safe with aluminum, these days). Copper is even more efficient, but rarely seen and heavy."
----------------
Most "conventional" radiators still have brass tubes & copper fins. The problem with copper/brass is the soldered joints between brass tubes & copper fins have lower thermal conductivity & this gets worse as the soldered joints age. Although aluminum only has about 40% of the thermal conductivity of copper, aluminum radiators have the tubes & fins brazed which gives more heat transfer between tubes & fins than old solder would. In the end, it is usually a toss up between aluminum & old soldered brass/copper. New soldered brass/copper is usually better than aluminum, though heavier. The move to aluminum radiators by the car manufacturers was prompted more by economy & weight reduction, than cooling efficiency.

Water Wetter does claim to reduce surface tension to aid cooling, but I suspect that it's main benefit is in not having the low thermal conductivity glycol mix but still having the corrosion inhibitors like glycol mixtures have. I have tried back to back tests with WW in a 50/50 glycol/water mix & without WW. There was not enough difference to be significant. Red line's claims not withstanding.

Here is a good summary of the situation:
https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redtech3.htm

Thanks for your excellent posting.
D
 
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