WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO...

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Original Topic…</span>

What is it that makes British cars so special?

This is the question that I will be developing into a proposal for my Automotive Design degree at Coventry University.

My aim is to design and develop a new British car (interior and exterior), that shows all major aspects of British automotive design, both new and old. This design will then go on to be presented to Rolls Royce, Bentley, and many other British manufacturers.

So my question to you, and I hope you can help me with it, is about trends and styles that you love about British cars, both new and old...

What does a British car have that others do not?
What makes a British car truly British?
What is it about British car styling that makes us so passionate?
Has anything been lost in current British cars that was evident in older designs?

Any opinions about any form of British car design would be appreciated, and hopefully we can start to get some ideas thrown about...</span>

<span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">New Topic…</span>

What do you think...?

I’m grateful that some patterns are already starting to become clear from the other forum topic…

Everyone seems to have fallen in love with ‘the drive’ of the LBC’s: Their rattles, their squeaks, and their smells, everything that gives the vehicle some character. And I can relate. My car has a few ‘flaws’, parts that rattle and squeak while driving, but they do add character to the car, and I know I would miss them if they stopped. Sadly, as ‘Steve S’ said, these cannot be in the cars of today. There are too many regulations that prevent it. But there is nothing that prevents other aspects of ‘the drive’ being reinterpreted…

I really like ‘Bugimike’s description of ‘wearing’ the car, and how when you are in it, you are <span style="font-style: italic">one</span> with it, feeling what it feels. This could be developed into something interesting in my design. The idea of focusing the front of the car on the driver could allow a great link between man and machine, wrapping the controls around him, integrating the driver into the vehicle as opposed to placing him into the it. Allowing this more physical connection with the vehicle would hopefully be able to bring back some of the feelings that are lost within most current British cars, re-developing that long-lost ‘soul’…?

Another comment that has been on my mind was ‘Tony Barnhill’s’ about having ‘enough room to be comfortable, but not enough to be excessive’. The lead interior designer at Ford is quoted saying “Space is the greatest Luxury”, and that may be true in American automotive design where the cars are much larger, but maybe for a truly British design, this space should be better packaged, kept to the minimum that can be comfortable?

I love this idea of reinterpreting the driver experience, and I will hopefully be able to create a design that is visually British inside and out. With your love of some of the original British cars (and some of the new ones?), what do you think of some of these examples of current British car design…?

<span style="font-weight: bold">In my opinion, these 3 cars show good current British sport/luxury. I appreciate that this forum is mainly enthusiasts of LBC's, not the larger cars like these, but it is the love of <span style="font-style: italic">your </span>British cars that I hope to re-capture. Trends will hopefully be identified across the full range of British cars that will allow my design to look truly British. Form language on the classic LBC's is as valued as that on these cars. Hopefully comparisons can even be made... Your likes and dislikes would be really helpful to identify what trends affect a cars 'British' appearance…

Bentley Brooklands, 2008
- Brooklands Exterior
- Brooklands Interior

Aston Martin DB9, 2009
- DB9 Exterior
- DB9 Interior

And, showing the more radical side, Jaguar C-XF, 2007
(Does this still look 'British' to you?)
- C-XF Exterior
- C-XF Interior </span>

Thanks guys (and girls), the stuff up to now has been great, and highlighted many areas I would not have otherwise thought of.

Hopefully we can keep this going,

- Ben

(Sorry to those who read this post in my other window, it was lost among so many answers that it became hard to find. Hopefully this topic will be as enthusiastically answered...
Thanks Guys.)</span>

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

Just to be clear, I do NOT like rattles and squeaks. They drive me insane. I do like the simplicity and the feeling of stepping back in time, even if that means drafts, vibration and noise.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

Again - those 3 choices are just big luxury boxes that are trying to compete with the Japanese luxury boxes....they, in no way, epitomize what we've been saying about our LBC's...I wouldn't even consicder them "in the British tradition" & would walk away....plus, they cost too much for the average guy to buy...I sat in one of the new C-XF's recently....felt like I was in a coccoon, not a car.

How about thinking about the new MG about to be built as your starting point?

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

Agree about those fat-ass examples being nothing at all like the traditional British sports car.

Disagree that the new so-called MG will be anything other than a Japanese hot hatch by any other name.

I don't think that many minimalist sports cars in the old mould exist any more. If I had to propose some that come close, they would be the Lotus, Miata, Honda S2000, and the smaller BMW Z series. I suppose you could argue that the Pontiac Solstice should fit in there.

Note that other than the Lotus, none of these are British. Nor are they ever again likely to be.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

I think Tony just said it and didn't realize it.
The best thing about lbcs is that they are inexpensive. More fun for the buck. Made in large enough quantities, lots of people can buy them, there are lots of breakeryard spares available, and lots of chances for club activity. The fact that the cars hold the road fairly well, that they feel like you are "wearing" them, that they were sporty just makes the groundwork for the club activities. But IMHO, the main reason they were so popular is that the (inexpensive ones) were inexpensive.

OK one more thing. They were simple enough to work on in your driveway. Most things didn't need special tools or electronic meters. Basic maintenance could be done by the average bloke.

To re-create that, one must design-in ease of maintenance. Good luck with all the newer automotive regulations.

Air bags

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

The beauty of a lot of the older sports cars was the fact that costs were kept low because so many of them were built with many parts adapted from the parts bins of their existing, rather mundane cousins (i.e. saloons/sedans and even tractors and fire pumps), hence the "modern" LBC could be derived from existing sources incorporated into a simple, basic, sporty design. I could even encourage the use of some innovative
alternative-fuel power sources!
A budget something akin to this would be PERFECT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFkN3UXJ8BY&feature=related

Donns lament re: Air Bags with the newer regulations could be met using the same "parts-bin-sharing" philosophy and using an existing steering assembly, perhaps tweeked for responsive performance and feel!

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

Can't recall if it was Bedard, Egan or another but... it went something like: "You don't so much 'get into' a Lotus, rather you put it on... like a pair of pantyhose."

<span style="color: #990000"><span style="font-size: 12pt">
Okay, thanks for that guys. Within this topic and the previous one I have been able to develop a good understanding of what has been lost between the days of the LBC's and those of today, and hopefully (if successful), I will be able to re-capture some of this lost passion in my designs...

In terms of the cars I showed above, I agree that they are not as 'British' as they once had been, and I can see why the Lotus' are seen as the closest thing to the original British image, as they are the closest thing to an LBC. Small, very fast, sexy and unladen with technology... Sadly, with my previous University project being a Lotus, I have to look at the 'Luxury' area of the market. But, to capture the British look that I intend to produce will require a combination of the new-school luxuries of today, with the raw-ness and driver integration of the LBC's that made British cars so famous.

So, it's time for me to stop with the research and market studies, and pick up the markers again! ...

Thanks for the help, and the considered answers, it is appreciated...

Ben.

PS. I'll continue to check the forums so feel free to add any new comments, they will continue to be helpful
.</span></span>

Well, if you're going to lean towards the luxury side, don't try to recapture the old British feel - it ain't there in luxury cars! Never was, never will be!

The closest thing might be the early S-Type Jaguar...but the new version didn't get near hitting that mark either.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

racingenglishcars said:

I think Tony just said it and didn't realize it.
The best thing about lbcs is that they are inexpensive. More fun for the buck. Made in large enough quantities, lots of people can buy them, there are lots of breakeryard spares available, and lots of chances for club activity. The fact that the cars hold the road fairly well, that they feel like you are "wearing" them, that they were sporty just makes the groundwork for the club activities. But IMHO, the main reason they were so popular is that the (inexpensive ones) were inexpensive.

OK one more thing. They were simple enough to work on in your driveway. Most things didn't need special tools or electronic meters. Basic maintenance could be done by the average bloke.

To re-create that, one must design-in ease of maintenance. Good luck with all the newer automotive regulations.

Air bags

Click to expand...

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">and lots of chances for club activity</span></span>
Thats a big one.It's the people that love these cars play a huge part in the LBC "THING" hard to replicate today.

My LBC is a 56 Austin Healey 100-M and I can tell you why I am enamoured of Agatha.

Her smell, her simplicity, her reliability, her sound and most of all her styling. Gerry Coker knew what he was doing. Her lines are timeless. Having said that about my Healey...

My 96 XJS Jaguar, again his styling, his reliability, ease of driving, quickness and general overall response. His name is Onslow and to me, this is the last true Jaguar.

All in all British cars seem to be made to drive and not cruise. I can't really explain that except to say that when I take Agatha or Onslow out of the garage, I feel as though I am really controlling my vehicle. This is not what I feel when I drive my Envoy or other vehicles. Perhaps it is just my imagination but no one is going to convince me of that.

As the owner of 2 rather rare lbc's, I sometimes sort of relish the rareness. Then, I come back to ground and realize it is the car's features and driving experience -not the rareness- that makes it "special". When the #849 car is finished next spring -hopefully- , I will have spent over 40k over 4 years getting a 30k value car back on the road. But... it will be like new, better than when it was originally manufactured (a number of major upgrades) and a car that we will try to drive the wheels off while we still can. I bought this SP.250 in 1969 as the 2nd owner and put about 100k miles on it. I'm stoked that 40 years later I get a chance to put on the next 100. I would so much rather use it than a Miata, or Z-3, or whatever of the little go-fast cookie-cutters you name. I want to work at driving it, and feel like the word control has meaning. Just my .02

I think what I love most about the LBCs is the simplicity. They are not luxury cars, no cup holders, fancy stereos, or gadgets that interfer with the experience of the drive. They do not need leather seats with heaters or fancy gadgets. I do not think this can be recreated in today's world where drivers are trying to tune thier IPODS, text on their cell phones, drink their coffee and avoid the three ton SUV's that dominate our roads.
Very few peope I know see their cars as anything more than a way to get from point A to Point B. They do not know or desire to know what it feels like to wait for the clock to release them from their mundane daily chores so they can jump into thier car and become a part of the drive home. It is a wind in the hair, clutch, shift, give it gas around that curve, take the long way home drive away from the stress and problems of daily life. And then arrive home feeling relaxed and ready to spend time with your family. No day was ever so bad that I didn't feel it fade as I drove home in midget. It always made me smile.
Good luck recreating that with today's plastic monsters.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

What is it that makes British cars so special?


What does a British car have that others do not?
<span style="font-weight: bold">A personality!</span>
What makes a British car truly British?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Their made in England!</span>
What is it about British car styling that makes us so passionate?
<span style="font-weight: bold">We adore the beauty of them, as we do our women!</span>
Has anything been lost in current British cars that was evident in older designs?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes! Hopefully the oil leaks!

</span>
But, I'll keep the older style, as I can live with the oil leaks.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

It's really hard to explain to people why I find LBCs (and especially <span style="font-style: italic">LB-sports-Cs</span>) so appealing.

It is sort of like explaining the appeal of Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

"If you have to ask.....you probably wouldn't understand". :laugh:

I own a Mazda MX-5 Miata as well as an MGB and a Sprite. The Miata is a fabulous car. In practical terms, it's the best car I've ever owned and it is miles better than my two Brits in virtually every respect.
But I like the MGB and the Sprite better. :thumbsup:

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

PAUL161 said:

What is it that makes British cars so special?


What makes a British car truly British?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Their made in England!</span>

Oooo - hadn't thought of that :lol: does that mean Italian cars are made in Italy? and if so, why are American cars made in Mexico?

Has anything been lost in current British cars that was evident in older designs?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes! Hopefully the oil leaks!

That's not all that's been lost. I've lost parts of my interior, parts of the engine - and darn, where is that light assembly? :thumbsup:

</span>
But, I'll keep the older style, as I can live with the oil leaks.

Click to expand...

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

PAUL161 said:

...
What makes a British car truly British?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Their made in England!</span>...

Click to expand...

No, they’re made in <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Britain</span></span>. That also includes Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland (mustn’t forget the DeLoreans), etc.

I guess any cars made over here before 1776 (or 1783 in British paperwork) would be British too. :wink:

tony barnhill said:

Well, if you're going to lean towards the luxury side, don't try to recapture the old British feel - it ain't there in luxury cars! Never was, never will be!


The closest thing might be the early S-Type Jaguar...but the new version didn't get near hitting that mark either.

Click to expand...

I agree that big luxury cars don’t feel like the sports cars. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t have their own uniquely British feel. Big Jag, Bentley, Daimler or Rolls saloons are certainly quite different from any Mercedes, Lincoln or Caddy.


PC.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

PC - there's a real difference in the 'luxury' of new cars & the 'luxury' of the old British saloons....in his earlier posts, he wasn't trying to recapture the old Bit saloon 'luxury'....that's what I meant.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

Fair enough.

But I maintain that the principle still holds for the crop of luxury sport coupes/GT's mentioned at the beginning of this post.

Compared to current offerings from BMW, Nissan, Maserati, Ferrari, Mercedes or Caddy the Brits still exhibit a different flair and feel.


PC.

Re: WHAT MAKES BRITISH CARS SO SPECIAL - PART TWO.

PC said:

Fair enough.

But I maintain that the principle still holds for the crop of luxury sport coupes/GT's mentioned at the beginning of this post.

Compared to current offerings from BMW, Nissan, Maserati, Ferrari, Mercedes or Caddy the Brits still exhibit a different flair and feel.


PC.

Click to expand...

Even the British Marques built by Germans. I've recently spent some time in a New Bentley. Totally different feel than a new Mercedes/BMW/Audi.