Spridget Performance

Aloha,

What kind of performance can you expect to see out of a healthily tuned 1275cc engine?

I know that I should buy the "Tuning the A-Series Engine" book, but I would like to hear from owners about their cars.

Can you give a boy-racer Honda or a Toyota a run for its money?



aloha,
Joel

I don't know the limits myself, but I do know the former British Car Magazine is running a series of articles on tuning a Midget to take a Miata. At the start the completely clapped out and unsafe Midget came reasonably close to keeping up on the test track.

With that being the case, I would think it may be possible to take on one of the boy racers, depending on their level of prep as well. The top levels of those deathtraps are turboed, intercooled and running NOS. Tough competition.

Just remember, speed is just a question of money, how fast do you want to go?

MattP

They've been successfully racing Spridgets, Minis and other a-series powered cars for more than 40 years now. The question is how fast can you afford to go. Whatever you want is out there, for a price.

The real weak spot is the axle shafts, though. Serious power in a Spridget tends to rip 'em up, I hear.

Hello all,
talking about cost, I noticed on E-Bay (UK) a brand new Arden eight port head for the A series engine. The price was at £3,100 or so and the auction was still on.
Some people are obviously still spending serious money on A series engines.

Alec

It's not a fair comparison.
The 1275 is 50 year-old technology, and it's a fair amount smaller than even the smaller-displacement Japanese engines. And by "performance", do you mean drag racing, pure HP or something else? Also, the car and engine are two different parts of the equation.
Well anyway;
A really, really healthy 1275 *might* make 120 HP (in a SCCA Runoffs car). These engine have primitive knock-inducing combustion chambers and 3 main cranks. Forget about using street gas...plan on buying your fuel in 55 gallon barrels from a specialty supplier and you'd be renewing rod bearing every 10,000 miles (if you're lucky). A more agreeable state-of-tune might be about 85 HP. You could run street gas and have reasonable longevity. But this amount of HP would never beat a stock Civic (the good ones are about 150 HP) even if a Spridget *is* a fair amount lighter.
But a Sprite is tons more fun to drive and, like all slower cars, you have to really *drive* it to get the best out of it. A more-powerful car (such as an RSX, a CRX, an RX-7, etc.) will allow you to go faster without trying so hard....less rewarding, as I see it. For club racers, a Sprite is fun to drive at 10:10ths. A racing RX-7 could be downright terrifying at that level, for most of us (me, for sure).
I saw the Grassroots comparo between the Miata and the Midget. It was on a slow, autocross course, which plays to the narrowness of the Midget (and the Miata was still faster). I own a Miata and a Midget.....a stock Midget couldn't even come close to a stock Miata as far as sporting steet use or on faster autocross courses (and certainly not on a race track).
As far as modified race-cars, here's my observation:
A fairly ordinary Spec Miata (they have essentially stock engines) can make it around Summit Point fully 3 to 4 seconds faster than a hot 1275 Sprite (I just looked at our Nov 03 race-results and compared three SM Miatas with three 1275 Sprites). 3 to 4 seconds is huge. I did feel I could stay with the SMs in tight turns at Summit, but nowhere else.
Even the special head mentioned above by Alec wouldn't bring you to the power levels needed to go head-to-head with a fairly ordinary Japanese 4-cylinder engine.
I will tell you that Spridgets are *way* more fun to drive than Miatas, but that's a difficult thing to quantify.
Can't you tell by the smile on my face in the picture below? (Note: the Honda following me has been racing with same used, "junkyard" engine for the last 6 years, with no major work....they're fast *and* reliable).

It depends on who you're racing I'd guess. The kids with any of the cars from the late 80's and newer all rely on engine swaps, turbos and nitrous to get power. If their car wasn't a sports car from the factory, they've had to do something major to get power. A bone stock CRX doesn't make much too much power, but for $500 you can get a turn-key installation of a 140hp JDM engine, and the power and cost goes up from there.

If you're racing old Toyotas, they are tuned with intakes, exhausts, pistons and porting. A 22r Toyota Corolla will most likely make around 150hp for a tuned street racer.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if you're racing older cars, you'd have a decent chance or at least it would be fun. If you're doing stoplight drags against a Prelude or Celica All-Trac, you'll probably be smoked. But why would you race those people. Most don't know a mini from a midget.

Yes, that's all true, but if you're nutty enough you can fit an 8-port head and a supercharger or turbocharger (both are available out there somewhere), and then you'd be running with the big dogs, assuming you could get that power on the ground without destroying the car in the process. Given the 8-port head, you could also go with modern FI... basically, anything they can do, you can do too (with the possible exception of 16v, DOHC heads).
And if we're talking engine swaps, several for the Spridget are well-documented. The rotary swap, in particular, turns the little Spridget into a real screamer.

But I think the weak link on the Spridget isn't making the power, it's making the rest of the drivetrain strong enough to handle it.

Of course, no matter how big a dog you get to be, there's always a bigger one.

it aint about speed.....its about Style

mark

Aloha,

I guess I was asking this question in relation to what my experience in hot-rodding a car has been. In previous posts I talked about how I was into aircooled VW's (which are usually only setup for drag-racing), but I also used to have an '88 Honda Prelude. Needless to say, most of my friends (I'm 24) are into Japanese imports and the like. I don't hate Japanese imports or anything, but I do get annoyed with the whole "import scene" and image that comes with it. Personally, I'd probably buy a WRX or something like that if it wasn't for all the boy-racer idiots out there that demand the disdain of all other motorsports enthusiasts.

Anyway...thank you for all your answers. Nial, your comparison with the SM Miatas gives a good comparison. I like to have fun driving quirky old cars, but I also like to go fast. 10K miles between bearing changes is not long-lived enough for me. If I get a Spridget sometime in the future, I'd rather build a robust engine rather than a timebomb.



Mahalos,
Joel

Joel, keep your eye on the GRM/Classic Motorsports Midget buildup. They've got some tricks lined up for that little Midget, I can promise you. Heck, they've already built the world's fastest spitfire.

Rotary fits nice:
https://hometown.aol.com/ursnoozin/images/motor%20running%20outside.jpg

But people have put all sorts of Toyota and Nissan blocks in, V6s, v8s... the Zetec would probably be pretty nice, if you can cram it in.

Tom Bedenbaugh on this forum has a 1971 MG Midget that puts out close to 130 hp !! If I remember correctly he shaved both the head and block 30 thousands to get a CR of 13:1. He fully modified the head with rim-flow valves and has super light rods, pistons, springs, etc. He uses a 45 DCOE. The engine needs 2 bottles of octane booster per tank to be safe. Its also his daily driver !!

Oh, Its also a sleeper because there is no hint of any modifications. But once you hear the awesome noise that comes from the ANSA exhaust
you know theres something special under the hood.

Aloha again,

Baxter - I'm definitely watching that Midget build-up. If not for anything else, I buy Classic Motorsports just for that build-up (so far). Which begs another complaint on my part: the LBC scene down here hardly warrants the booksellers any reason to carry that magazine. Barnes&Noble carried it for the first 3 issues, then dropped it. Now Borders has it but who knows for how long. Anyway...back to Spridgets.

Trevor&Baxter - I'll check those articles out when I get home (still at work). But, I'm usually one to try and stick to what the factory gave you. I'm not a purist by most definitions, but engine swaps are borderline for me. Then again, if I just plan on having a street car I supose it doesn't matter. If I was going to vintage race the thing, then it would be out of the question.




aloha,
Joel

[ 12-16-2003: Message edited by: Joel Simmons ]</p>

My brother has spent much time and money tuning and modifying his eclipse turbo. It is a fast car that handles well (although too much understeer for my tastes). Anyway, he can obviously blow past my rather stock midget. However, it frustrates him that I often run off and leave him when he follows me down country roads. If he spent more time learning to drive his car and less on modifying it, he would probably be much happier, and could certainly keep up with my little midget. I hope to repower the midget sometime in the future. Most likely with a *gasp* zetec solution. here is a link to a fast midget: https://trevorwj.home.insightbb.com/hotrodmidget.jpg

[ 12-16-2003: Message edited by: Trevor Jessie ]</p>

My Sprite gives the rice boys a run for their money.
Sure some beat me but I beat some off the traffic lights in town.
I do have a mild cam (Kent 266) Weber DCOE, aluminum flywheel, 5 speed, and a 4.22 diff.
If you are talking about a Honda with a wing and a coffee can for a tail pipe, no problem. But some of these kids have 30,000 dollars in their sushi sleds.
My own son has what I call a 30,000 dollar 87 VW GTI. It's real fast, it blows my Sprite away, it also blows away 60s muscle cars at the track.
He also goes thru an engine a year and his engine cost more then I have tied up in 2 Sprites!
But I am married with kids, he is still single
If you repower a Spridget with a modern transplant, it just isn't the same car. (in my opinion) If you stick a chevy engine in a ford, is it still a ford? If you stick a Mazda rotary in a Sprite, what's the difference. Why not stick a Sprite body on a Mazda? It's just not the same.
And if you do blown away by a modern rice rocket, just do what I do. Tell him to come see you when HIS car is 40 years old.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by spritenut:
.....just do what I do. Tell him to come see you when HIS car is 40 years old.<hr></blockquote>


Amen!

And on the subject of engine swaps and other major modifications....I believe that if it's your car, you should be able to do what you want with it; but at some point, you really can't honestly call it a "Sprite" or "Midget" anymore. Part of the fun of a Spridget is it's primitive drivetrain.....it's sort of like "The Little Engine That Could". A fellow regularly brings an automatic 350 Chevy powered "Sprite" to some local static events here in NJ. In my view, it's no longer a Sprite.

Another example is the "Spridget" owned by fellow-racer (and pilot), John Leary. He's an excellent guy and the car is neat, but even he doesn't call it a "Sprite" anymore. Usually, it's the "Mazdget". It has a 225 HP 13B Mazda rotary, 5 speed close ratio box, full-tube chassis, four wheel formula car independent suspension with cast arms and uprights (and huge inboard rear disk brakes), and a one-piece fiberglass body (it looks like it has opening doors, but those are just seams molded into the 'glass). In terms are "real" Sprite parts, it has the stock Lucas tail lights and that's about all. It's kind of kick for us other "Spridgeteers" to see it pass 5.0 Mustangs and 350 Corvettes going uphill on the backstraight at Lime Rock. The car turns 58 second laps at LR......I doubt Lucas tail light have ever gone as fast! . But it would be silly to call this car a Sprite. (John also has 13B rotary-powered "normal" Sprite for the street). Here's a thumbnail of the "Mazdget" (the link shows a high-res picture of the same car)




https://www.emraracing.org/photo_gallery/fullpics/26a.jpg

Of course, as enthusiasts we admire all the permutations of these great little cars and efforts aimed at getting more power, ect.

But for me, there's nothing like seeing and LBC carefully restored back to the way the manufacturer intended, with all its ideosyncracies and design flaws. Such restoration efforts -- keeping the car at least somewhat original -- preserves the tradition and history that comes with LBC restoration and allows us to pass it on to future generations.

Someday in the not too distant future, restorable examples will all be gone. So before you rip your LBC apart to wedge in a V/8 engine or bolt on a spoiler wing, think carefully. You may be destroying a piece of history!

Here Here for the voice of the purist among us. I to like them as stock as possible but to each his own.

I have one stock, one with bolt on mods, and one with lots of mods.
My personal Sprite, I like to go fast.
My wife won't let me alter hers. My son is doing a 58 Bugeye stock. And the Austin A40 has some modern safty improvements because it was a daily driver but it can go back to unsafe stock in a day with no paint or body work.
And even my own freshly restored Sprite was brought back to hold a 1275 where a Chevy V8 was once under the bonnet.
I too enjoy original and concours cars. I *may* even do a concours Sprite some day, I do have lots of rare NOS goodies that I would never use on a daily driver. But it will not be a run of the mill Sprite. If I do a concours example, it has to be of historic importance or a one off car. I just have to stumble across that car in a barn.

Aloha,

Well...I don't know if I'd be getting into vintage racing or anything. I probably couldn't afford it, what with buying tires every few months, the gas, other stuff, etc. I would just like to have a classic LBC that I could tweak and hot rod a little bit. I agree with Nial that once you swap in another drivetrain, it becomes something else. Not a Spridget anymore. But, do as you please with your own car.

I like the Spridget because its affordable. Of course, there are other LBC's that I'd love to have, but there're a lot of other things I'd like to do with my paycheck rather than pay-off the cost of a AH 3000. Know what I mean?

So...maybe its not the fastest car on the street, but its classy and can have an attitude if you're willing to pay for it.

What's the going price for a "driver?" I think I read somewhere that if you're paying more than $5k for a museum piece you're a fool (for a Box Sprite).



mahalos,
Joel