Could We Design a New Spridget?

This would seem to be the right group to come up with a conceptual design for a new MG-Rover Spridget. After all, who today knows the advantages and limitations of the original better than today's Spridget owners. And just look at the market for retro cars--new Beetles, Minis, 2-seat T-Birds, Prowlers, etc., not to mention the Miatas and Vipers. So, there must be a "Spridget" market, too--all of us LBC lovers aren't nuts, are we?

I've come up with a few quotes to get us started:

First, the 1960s Spridget:
“The Midget was small, inexpensive, fast, and safe with predictable handling. Above all, it was a fun car.”

Now, a new car that MG-Rover just introduced:
“CityRover is ... small, smart, and surprisingly spacious. It's all about fun, having the freedom to move, making life that little bit easier and a lot more affordable.”

Here is a link to the new car, which interestingly has a model called the "Sprite." (https://www.mg-rover.com/content/Rover/en_GB/Rover2/~jsp/model_CityRover_home.jsp)

This new car has a 1.4-liter, 16-valve engine with 85Ps. The "sporty Sprite" has a £7,712 starting price and includes power-assisted steering, 5-speed manual transmission, optional ABS braking, and driver and passenger airbags.

Here are some of the "CityRover's" dimensions:

Length = 3703 mm (145.8 inches)
Width = 1620 mm (63.8 inches)
Height = 1500 mm (59.1 inches)
Wheelbase = 2400 mm (94.5 inches)
Front track = 1380 mm (54.3 inches)
Rear track = 1374 mm (54.1 inches)
Turning radius = 9.8 m (32 feet)

Here is the "Designer's Challenge" (no money is involved!):
1) Could this car be rebodied as a two-seat sports car and sold for, say, $13,000 as a "starter" sports car?
2) Would you want it converted to rear-wheel drive (as in Spridget vs. Mini) or left as FWD?
3) What features of the original Spridgets would you want to see included in the body--frog-eyes, square wheel wells, oval or square grill, etc.?
4) Are there any other modern sports car (from, say, the last 20 years) that you would most want it to look like?

Have fun!
Steve

OK, I'll bite.

It seems that the idea of a simple, fun, and inexpensive recreational car is not plausible in the US. Safety regulations and environmental regulations have made this virtually impossible. I'm glad that all new cars in the US are required to meet certain standards. But it would be nice if there was another class of cars that could be sold without all the safety requirements. (The owner would just have to sign a waiver). At first this may sound far fetched, but the last time I checked motorcycles certainly don't have many safety regulations (compared to cars). And the reason is simple: they are inherently more hazardous to your health if you are involved in an accident. I accept this to be true of my Midget, and I accept those risks and will not hold MG responsible if I am badly injured in an accident.

SO... I think the task is simple and doable if we could ignore some of the safety regs. I think the car could be designed and sold with modular body panels so that you could choose to have it look more like a bugeye or a late model midget. And YES it must be rear wheel drive (the way God intended)

I'm sure you can come up with something better than MG's new Midget! I seem to recall reading that MG thinks it is the modern equivalent of what the originals were. Maybe, but personally I think it's hideous. Rumor has it the production Midget will have a sport-tuned engine from the Cityrover, is scheduled to hit the streets in 2005, and has a planned price tag of about £10,000 (just over $16,500). I've not heard whether there is a North American version planned.

As for "retro" cars - if MG, or someone else for that matter, were to try to reintroduce the MG-RV8, or even an RV8/MGB style car with a 4-cyl engine I'd certainly consider buying one, at the right price.




[ 11-07-2003: Message edited by: aerog ]

[ 11-07-2003: Message edited by: aerog ]</p>

1) Could this car be rebodied as a two-seat sports car and sold for, say, $13,000 as a "starter" sports car?

*** Probably, add a couple grand to cover the cost of new tooling for the different body. So maybe $15k.


2) Would you want it converted to rear-wheel drive (as in Spridget vs. Mini) or left as FWD?

*** RWD would mean a new trans, adding a rear diff, a completely different front suspension, a completely different rear suspension, changing the engine orientation and a different chassis to accommodate the newly added drive shaft. Wouldn't be much left, it would be a new car. Doable though, add a few more kilobucks.


3) What features of the original Spridgets would you want to see included in the body--frog-eyes, square wheel wells, oval or square grill, etc.?

*** I vote for frog-eyes.


4) Are there any other modern sports car (from, say, the last 20 years) that you would most want it to look like?

*** Nope. Isn't that the point? That it's supposed to be a new Spridget?


PC.

Actually, this has been tried. Geoff Healey even gave it his blessing. The "new" Sprite was built on The Isle of Wright and was called the "Healey Frogeye". It was built on a tube chassis with a 'glass body. Most cars had refurbished 1275s, but several had the 1.4 Rover "K" motor. About 250 cars were built before the company folded. An investor has purschased the assets including the body molds, but that was about 2 years ago.
There's also a Brit company the does a full refurb and conversion on box-Sprite that includes the "K" motor.



More info on the Healey Frogeye here:

https://www.mgcars.org.uk/midgetspriteclub/news1/plastic_frog.htm


The MG Midget in Scott's post was supposed to be built in India. Rover is now saying the agreement with the Indian company was never finalized and in fact, fell through. Apparently, Rover has taken legal action against the Indian company (can't recall the name) for promoting the "new MG" concept before Rover gave it's OK.

I'm a big fan of the Suzuki Cappuccino and the FIAT Barchetta and wish they were available in the US...they are really both "modern Spridgets" (links below):

https://www.suzuki-cappuccino.com/gal_members.html

https://www.fiatbarchetta.com/images/new-barchetta.jpg


Meanwhile, I'll stick with my present Spridget...warts and all.

The Indian company's name is "TATA", the same company that MG/Rover is working with on the "CityRover" car.

That's it...."TATA".
From what I had read, TATA had burned their bridges with Rover, but I guess not.

Steve,
I think that SUV's appeal to a wide variety of consumers for a variety of reasons. However, I think there is a niche market for cheap recreational vehicles. People by boats, personal watercraft, motorcyles, ATVs, etc. for recreation. If the new midget was cheap AND fun, I think you might be shocked by the number of people willing to buy the toy. Now, about that Arkley comment... I'm not proposing designing body modifications as an aftermarket plan. I'm proposing that multiple configurations be designed/engineered as part of the original vehicle. Then each midget could be made to order with not only options (like current cars), but also with styling that the consumer wants. Mark my words... "Made to order modular vehicles are the future" (And no I don't mean GM's "skateboard chasis")

The problem today is everybody wants all the bells and whistles.
Look at the new Mini. Power windows, door locks, AC, you name it. And it's selling in fully loaded versions.
Offer up a Spridget like car with no AC, no remote starter, no power windows, no heated seats, and on board DVD player and nobody will buy it.
SUVs are a prime example. Take a truck, fill it with power everything, leather seats, wooly carpets, and then sell those same people seat covers and cargo mats to protect their interiors. It's not very "Sporty" and it's not very "Utilitarin" yet everybody owns one. My old mans 68
Chevy station wagon was more usefull than any new SUV. And since our generation wouldn't be caught dead in a "station wagon" we all have SUVs, todays answer to what we grew up in. And no air bags, real metal dash boards, and seat belts that were never worn.
My SUV is my 59 Austin A40. My Sports car is my Sprite, my utility vehicle is my pick up truck (with 100% pure vinyl seats and a hand crank to raise the window) and it's a 2001!
Back to the new Spridget, My design would be basic. Very basic and cheap. Yes modern safty stuff but no foo foo stuff. Not even as an option.
Options would be radio, heater, tonneau cover, and hard top.
4 cyl, 5 speed, rear wheel drive, take off top.
A 2 seater with low slung doors, chrome bumpers and grille, roll up windows would be nice, and basic unpadded carpet with simple interior panels which by todays standards would be ABS molded plastic.
A modern looking car would be better than a retro version. Something along the folded box lines of todays Focus, Caddy, or Vibe.
If kept simple, it could sell in the 12-15k range.
There again, for 12-15K you can buy 2 really nice Spridgets.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by spritenut:
The problem today is everybody wants all the bells and whistles. Look at the new Mini. Power windows, door locks, AC, you name it. And it's selling in fully loaded versions. Offer up a Spridget like car with no AC, no remote starter, no power windows, no heated seats, and on board DVD player and nobody will buy it.
<hr></blockquote>

I agree, but evidently wanting all those creature comforts is not just an American trait. And, after all, the Mini is really a Beemer, right?

Here is another quote from the MG-Rover Web site:

"Settle into the stylish, supportive seats, tune in to the top-quality sound system and set the air-conditioning to cosy-up or chill out. In CityRover everything is designed for comfort and convenience and all controls fall readily to hand, including electric windows and even little touches like the driver and passenger reading lamps."

Is it just me or does that sound more like a Jag than a 1.5L minicar not even sold in the U.S.?

Incidentally, that Arkley comment had a "wink" by it. And, my daily driver is a 2000 Ford pickup with roll-up windows and a 5-speed, but I'll 'fess up to being pampered by air and a CD as well.


Steve

"Creature comforts" are desireable in your daily driver, but I think we need a new class of vehicles. It should be simplistic not just to make it affordable, but also to make it fun! The city rover is obviously aiming for something totally different. I think a new midget should target people that would like to have a sporty car for the weekend, but without having to pay a premium for a "sports car". In other words something to drive for the sake of driving enjoyment (not a place to sleep and eat meals). SHAME on all you people that put cup holders in your midget. How can you get any serious driving done with a slushy in one hand.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Trevor Jessie:
OK, I'll bite.

It seems that the idea of a simple, fun, and inexpensive recreational car is not plausible in the US. Safety regulations and environmental regulations have made this virtually impossible. I'm glad that all new cars in the US are required to meet certain standards. But it would be nice if there was another class of cars that could be sold without all the safety requirements. (The owner would just have to sign a waiver). At first this may sound far fetched, but the last time I checked motorcycles certainly don't have many safety regulations (compared to cars). And the reason is simple: they are inherently more hazardous to your health if you are involved in an accident. I accept this to be true of my Midget, and I accept those risks and will not hold MG responsible if I am badly injured in an accident.

SO... I think the task is simple and doable if we could ignore some of the safety regs. I think the car could be designed and sold with modular body panels so that you could choose to have it look more like a bugeye or a late model midget. And YES it must be rear wheel drive (the way God intended)

<hr></blockquote>
--------------------------------------
Reality check!!
Cars which are imported to the US must meet very rigorous safety & emission standards. Cars which do not meet the standards must be brought into compliance by a "Registered Importer". This can be sometimes accomplished by the RI & many times not. The cost to bring a car into compliance can be more than the original cost of the car. Many purchasers have been caught in the middle when importing a so called "grey market" car from Europe to the US.
You can check this out on this web site.
https://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/
------------------------------
A car that meets these requirements looks & acts just like the ones we are complaining about.

As far as waivers/exemptions go; In our "sue happy" environment with irresponsible lawyers suing auto manufacturers right & left, no way is it going to happen.
D

I don't think in today's world that the Spridet phenonomem can`ever be recreated....the Miata was a close as you'll get, I think. Unfortunately!

Ok, so far we've got a new Midget with the following specs:
Target audience: people wanting a sporty weekend car
Pricing approach: basic and cheap
Styling approach: two-seater with low-slung doors; modern, not retro, styling; RV8/MGB style car with 4-cylinder; Suzuki Cappuccino or FIAT Barchetta appearance; something better than MG's new Midget.
Drive train: 4 cyl, 5 speed, rear-wheel drive
Exterior features: frog-eyes, chrome bumpers and grille, removable, not fold-down, top
Interior features: roll-up windows; basic unpadded carpet; molded ABS-plastic interior panels
Safety features: seat belts; driver air bag; side impact protection; high-mounted rear stop light
Standard accessories: heater; power steering
Optional accessories: radio (eg., the new Suburu WRX STi comes without a radio); tonneau cover; hardtop; ABS brakes; passenger air bag
Non-options: no AC, remote locks, power windows, or heated seats, even as options
Other considerations: modular body panels to allow ordering either a bugeye or a late-model Midget version

Now for a few questions:
Target audience: What about weekend racers--won't they want an actual sports car, not a "sporty car"?
Styling approach: The original thread assumed that Rover would "parts-bin engineer" a new Midget using the CityRover chassis, engine, tranny, safety features, and accessories to reduce development costs and meet safety and emissions standards. Has British sports-car design changed so much since the '60's Spridgets (or the 60's American pony cars and muscle cars, for that matter) were designed that an entirely new car would be designed? Are "low-slung doors" compatible with Federally-mandated side-impact protection?

Editorial comment: This is not a "dream car" design--it has to be a car that might actually be manufactured and, most importantly, be imported into the U.S.--even if, as Tony has pointed out, that may be a dream. So, I agree with Dave that the car would have to meet all U.S. emissions and safety standards. Otherwise it is not a "production car" and could not be widely imported, particularly in California, which forms a huge percentage of the imported sports car market. Gray-market cars are individual cars or small volume imports done by individuals or middlemen, generally on very expensive limited-edition imports like Ferraris.

Steve

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Trevor Jessie:
It seems that the idea of a simple, fun, and inexpensive recreational car is not plausible in the US. Safety regulations and environmental regulations have made this virtually impossible. I'm glad that all new cars in the US are required to meet certain standards. But it would be nice if there was another class of cars that could be sold without all the safety requirements.<hr></blockquote>

Trevor,

Here's another quote from the Rover Web site:

"CityRover is designed to keep you safe in the fast-moving inner city traffic or on the open motorway. A high-mounted rear stop light makes you clearly visible, ABS braking (standard on Style, optional on other models) gives safe sure stopping power, while side impact protection, and driver and passenger (standard on Style) airbags provide a feeling of total security."

I wonder if manufacturers don't want to sell tiny, 1500-cc cars in the U.S. because of lack of past sales success for that segment even if they meet U.S. safety requirements? After all, the most successful current vehicles in the U.S. are monster SUVs.

Steve

PS--I am truly shocked that no one wants to design a new version of the Arkley SS Midget!

I *do* wish there was another class of cars, for those Ludites among us who could actually roll up our own windows (my *base* Miata came with electric windows, A/C, power steering, CD player, a Nardi steering wheel and electric mirrors).
In a sense, we do have this with motorcycles, but I realize this doesn't fully work (even for a biker like me).
The other option is to build your own. There is a decent-size market in N. America with Cobras and Lotus 7s (most states have laws that allow kit cars to be registered with emissions-only tests...not bumper or safety test). Personally, I would like to home-build a Ford Model A Speedster at some point in my life. Anyone who's familiar with the homebuilt aircraft industry can see that there are many folks with the build-it-yourself attitude. If you are interested in reading about a non-mechanical fellow who built a Caterham (Lotus) 7, pick up Chris Goodrich's "Roadster" book. It's excellent and inspiring.
One thing I've seen lately, are those electric "eco-cars" (there a dealer near Lime Rock, of all places). They appear to be getting a "pass" on all sorts of safety rules. I wonder if the fuel-sipping FIAT or Suzuki roadsters in my post above could be brought in a "eco-cars". It would work for me!

The USA answer might be the Pontiac Solstice. Due out in 2005.

Steve

OK, I concede. And we will focus on a "proper" US car and not on my Dream of personal accountability.
Wasn't the original Miata similar to what we are talking about. It seems that they did not have power steering or AC. Was the car not selling well enough that they had to add all the fluff?
On another note, I think that retrostyling is a trend that may have already run its course. But, I would still like to see "styling" options beyond an optional spoiler and body moldings. On the subject of "bin-engineering" I believe that the Pontiac Fiero was designed this way. It proved to be a successful car, but lost its luster rather quickly. I think this thread is helping reinforce my decision to keep my midget because I seriously doubt there will be another cheap fun sports car in the US.

But the Fiero is coming back as everybody discovers the Cadillac V8 fits nicely...there's a business here in Huntsville that stays busy converting cars from all over the US....&, my neighbor has that nice Fiero GT he wants to sell.....

Yes, I've seen a Fiero with the V8, which illustrates one of the advantages of "bin-engineering" (being able to swap parts with other models). But a more important reason is the reduction in development and production costs.

Hey Basil, It would be nice to be able to view the other posts while I'm woking on my reply. I lost my train of thought... uhmm ... hummm... OK ... what about dimensions on this new midget? Should it be overgrown like the new "mini's"? And, is the US too politically correct to call it a Midget even though there are very few (if any) people in the US that are midgets.