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Rivergate 5 speed conversion questions

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I'm finishing up a customer's 1275 engine right now that has the Rivergate Datsun 5 spd. conversion kit on it. I wonder if anyone here has installed one of these, my questions are more about the adapter backing plate and rear seal kit, which I did away with on the rebuild because they don't work!
 
Country flag
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I have one. The rear seal worked well for about 600 miles. Now it leaks. What is your question?
 

spritenut

Luke Skywalker
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I had one, the rear seal leaked by the time the car made it from Rivergate back to me.
Hillbilly mechanics at their best.
 
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Hmmm... Should I take offense?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

Westfield_XI

Jedi Warrior
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My question is: what can I do prior to installing the kit to prevent the leakage? Is there a better seal? Or does the 3-main bearing crank wobble too much to be sealable? Plus, how much leakage are we talking about? A few drops a day or a few drops an hour?
 
OP
Hap Waldrop
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Well this project all started because of the rear seal leaking, sound familar to you guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif We tried the rear seal kit when they first came out from Mini Mania, worked great for a short period of time then leaked worse than if it didn't have a rear seal. I must have tried the rear seal atleast a dozen times now with the same results. So I told the customer that would be the first thing we got rid of. My questions was more about the directions for you all that did this conversion yourself, the custom backing plate was installed with what has to be the most silicone I ever saw in my entire life, I talking about a couple of tubes worth, the back of the crank was literally entombed in the stuff. I thought we would never get the darn thing off, you know the sound it make when you step ankle deep into thick mud and you pull your foot out, well that how the backing plate sounded when we finally did it get it free, the oil pump cover was destoyed while removing it form excess silicone. It was just a freaking joke that the customer put that much silicone on this thing, he said the instructions told him to do so, but I have my doubts and that was what I was wondering, was what are the instructions for the installations of the custom back plate and rear seal regarding the use of silicone.
Anyway my remedy for all this was to ditch the seal kit, source the factory piece for the back of the block at the crank, install it and line bore the block with it in place. This is pretty much standard procedure for me with A-series blocks.
My advice to anyone is do not waste a penny of your money on any rear seal kit, they don't work and are a complete waste of time.
 
OP
Hap Waldrop
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[ QUOTE ]
My question is: what can I do prior to installing the kit to prevent the leakage? Is there a better seal? Or does the 3-main bearing crank wobble too much to be sealable? Plus, how much leakage are we talking about? A few drops a day or a few drops an hour?

[/ QUOTE ]

Throw it in the garbage can and do what I outlined above.
If you install it, I guarantee you, you will regret it. Bottom line A-sries engines will drop a little oil at the rear, but a few drops is better than a quart on the garage floor and thats what you will eventaully have with a rear seal kit.
 

jlaird

Great Pumpkin
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Well guess that's one thing we don't have to drool over and spend for.
 
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"source the factory piece for the back of the block at the crank"

It has been awhile (4 years) since I've had my engine apart. What part are you talking about? My car is now leaking the same amount of oil as it was before I installed the 5-speed kit. Why would installing the oil seal cause a faster leak?
It is an external seal beyond the scroll seal. Right?
 

tony barnhill

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Hap - I know the folks up at Rivergate & have visited their shop to see what they do...wish I could keep mine so clean! They spend a lot of time on R&R (thousand miles on their MGB w/5-speed before releasing kit to public)....I've never bought anything from them & have no connection with them...but, were it me, I'd call them or drive up & visit.....its a father/son/mom operation.

Oh, they build some killer racers!
 
OP
Hap Waldrop
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[ QUOTE ]
"source the factory piece for the back of the block at the crank"

It has been awhile (4 years) since I've had my engine apart. What part are you talking about? My car is now leaking the same amount of oil as it was before I installed the 5-speed kit. Why would installing the oil seal cause a faster leak?
It is an external seal beyond the scroll seal. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you installed the rear seal kit, you had to remove a factory piece off the back block and replace it with a new piece that came with rear seal kit, it bolts on the block just below rear main cap and three 1/4-28 bolts attach it to the block. When you line bore the block, this piece should always be installed first. This is tha main reason I feel the rear seal kits fail in my opinion because the housing that contains the seal use those same three bolts holes and attaches to the piece supplied with the rear seal and the location of this is disturbed during installation.
I saw a homemade kit that was made totally different on a 948 one time, but in the end it leaks badly too. The Rivergate seal is a little different , thay tried to correct earlier problerms, by make the piece that houses the seal attach to the back plate rather than the three bolt housing, but it appears like the 948 one I saw, they just don't work.

Tony I've talked to Mrs. Perry at Rivergate in the past about the Phantom Grip LSD kits without much satisfaction and no matter what they told me about the rear seal kit I would not chance putting the seal kit back on, I went with what I know will work. Beside not calling them saves me a sermon on having to hear again how fast Will Perry was in his ITD Midget, pleeeeese spare me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm sure they can do some fine work, but first impressions are normally lasting impressions. All Mrs. Perry wanted to do was argue with me about the Phantom Grip LSD, having very no idea who I was and treating me like a idiot, life is too short for such nonsense.
 

tony barnhill

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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[ QUOTE ]
Beside not calling them saves me a sermon on having to hear again how fast Will Perry was in his ITD Midget

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif hehehehehe
 
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Jeesh... I'm getting old. I really don't remember removing that bit. I need to go look at my parts heap and see what it looks like to try and jog my memory.
 
OP
Hap Waldrop
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[ QUOTE ]
Jeesh... I'm getting old. I really don't remember removing that bit. I need to go look at my parts heap and see what it looks like to try and jog my memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have the rear sel kit, from what I heard it was not always part of the 5 spd. kit, maybe that's why you don't remember it, becuase you don't have it.
By the way, I have no opinon on the 5spd kit, I'm sure it works fine, as many have been sold, my concern was more about the rear seal and and my customer overuse of silicone and him telling me they told him to do it that way, I'm sure this is not what Rivergate had in mind and would love to see some instructions for the installation of the backing plate and rear seal kit.

Why doesn't seal work, good question, but it doesn't as for what most who have tried have to say about it, including me, all my past expeiriences are with the Mini Mania kit, which is a much worse design that the Rivergate kit, whichj only works with the 5 spd, kit. At this point and especailly after reading a few people experineces with the RG seal, I'm not going there, no way, no how. and according to the above post it seems to make little difference if you installed it or they did, same results, leakage. I applaud thier effort in trying to make it better, but maybe it just wasn't meant to be.
 
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Nope,I remember the silicon, and thinking how loose the seal was around the flange.
 

Westfield_XI

Jedi Warrior
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Perhaps the problem is just that silicone is an inadaquate sealant. It's just a glorified bathub caulk!! Is it leaking around the seal to shaft point or around the seal housing. In avation we never use silicone where it can come into contact with oils. It just won't hold up, ever. We always use a 2-part sulfite sealant like Pro-Seal 890: once it cures it is impervious to any oil and can take the temps of a turbine engine oil system. I think I will try installing mine with a better sealant and see if that makes a difference. I believe this can be sourced at Aviation Spruce....I will get back to you in a few months.
 
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But... What will you do when you need to remove it again?
 
OP
Hap Waldrop
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[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the problem is just that silicone is an inadaquate sealant. It's just a glorified bathub caulk!! Is it leaking around the seal to shaft point or around the seal housing. In avation we never use silicone where it can come into contact with oils. It just won't hold up, ever. We always use a 2-part sulfite sealant like Pro-Seal 890: once it cures it is impervious to any oil and can take the temps of a turbine engine oil system. I think I will try installing mine with a better sealant and see if that makes a difference. I believe this can be sourced at Aviation Spruce....I will get back to you in a few months.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sealant shouldn't have anything to do with it, you're sealing on seal not the sealant. Think about it, there's nothing back there from the factory, but the reverse swirls to draw the oil back in the crankcase, how could sealant play a role in the seal working or not. I dealt with this rear kits more times than most on this board combined, I've probably built 30+ A seires engines in the last 5 years, I say atleast a dozen engines with rear seal kit with no sucess, I never seen anyone else ever claim that they could get one to work either. I admire your willingness to try, but think of it this way, if it doesn't waork, then out comes the block, to be taken apart and line bored and rebuilt, I'm a gambler, but that's a bet I'm not taking. I'll tell you the only thing I ever saw to make a A-series not leak in the rear is a dry sump oiling system /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Line bore your block with the factory piece in place during line boring, you'll get a drop here and there and that's about as good as it gets. Also I contribute the cork pan rail gasket to leaks as well, make sure you buy the more expensive Payen gasket set with the rubber pan gaskets, that seems to help alot on these motors, so in otherwords avoid the cheap gasket sets, Gordon at the B Hive and Rob and Dave at Winners Circle can get the Payen gasket sets for you, I won't build a 1275 without them.
 

kcbugeye1275

Jedi Knight
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I am about ready to remove my rivergate 5speed and replace the mtr htat is in the car, I'll look at that seal with interest.
 

JerryB

Jedi Warrior
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Hap:

Fell on the floor with your comment re: Phantom Grip.
Surely a passing grade using the flotation test.

Never seeing the rear main seal conversion I assume its a large o.d. one piece seal in a holder and the lip rides on the crank rear flywheel flange o.d.??

There is basically two problems with this.......one is the seal holder (whether a motor plate or screwed onto the back of the case in some way) ..this has to be indexed to the crank centerline so as to be concentric with the sealing area of the crank flange....to about + - .005" at the very most. Then....problem #2 is a correct finish on the crank flange. looking at a stock crank, the flange od almost is a radius in profile. Also the finish should be ground rather smooth and the wheel sparked out toward the front on the finish grind. betcha also he flange o.d.is not concentric either...

So I would think a field installation with no machine work would be problematic.

You ve prolly expeienced the same as I ...when the motor is line bored properly and the scroll o.d. retainer is done right , there is only a drop odf oil when u shut the motor off.....so all the expense of the seal kit is why?

Gotta luv the silicone seal deal also......more is BETTER!
 
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