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Thread: Inner sill opinion

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    Inner sill opinion

    I have the bottom flange and the sides of the fire wall repaired. The lower offset that is welded to the inner sill has been repaired. I have moved the front end onto the frame. That went well using the engine crane. The inner sills are from the roadster factory, purchased approx. 4 years ago by the PO. All the mounting points have the standard number of pads. This is my initial check to see how the front end repairs are looking and to get the side walls positioned and welded to the fire wall. The passenger side all mounts up very well. The driver side seems that the inner sill mounting plates are off a little bit. If the plates are lined up the diagonal mounting holes are off. If I line up the diagonal holes the inner sill mounts are off. There is very little I can do about the diagonal mounting position and as I reworked the frame last year and am very confident that the frame is right I am looking at reworking the inner sill. As this is my first restoration I could use advice on what I should expect to see as far as tolerances. I am trying to match both sides as I go. I feel I spend too much time trying to make everything match but I also hate to say close enough and have it cause a problem down the road. Comments are welcome. Frank
    Frank
    1960 TR3A TS61324
    rust bucket, work in progress, future road warrior

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Hey Frank,

    As far as tolerances, I think the factory must have used about 1/2" on the body. If you can get it inside 1/4" you are doing great. With the poor stampings we are dealing with it would take a lifetime to get everything spot on.

    I had to elongate the diagonal holes in the inner sill to attach them to the outriggers. The worst was about 3/8", if I remember. The floor and outrigger completely cover the sill mounting holes, so the fact you opened them will never be visible. So long as the outrigger fits inside the sill mounting pad, I would not have a problem opening up the holes to mount it. If the outrigger will not fit into the sill pad...then you may have to cut the pad off the sill and re-attach in position. Of course, I would double check that there is no damage to the outrigger before going to that extreme.

    Best of luck...still enjoying following along!
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Frank, I think that sounds close and probably good for now at least. Some pics are always nice. I am not sure what part of the front clip you are referencing; it sounds like the inner kick panels. I am sure you know what a challenge the doors are, but what I found to be a big challenge was the relationship between the rear and front clip. They have to meet in such a way the doors close and that little line that line runs from the rear clip through the door is close. Plus the front fender bolts to the inner sill at the bottom which kinda helps, but the rear clip can be set at different positions along the inner sill, so for me finding that sweat spot where the door meets the B post on the rear clip was time consuming.

    steve

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Sorry my description was a little vague. I was not coming up with the correct terminology for what I am working on. Thank you Steve for inner foot well terminology. Thank you John for the insight on slotting the inner sill mount. A big help. Since nothing is welded or tacked I can try different ideas. I set up the laser so I have a centerline reference. I set the inner sills the same distance off the centerline. The front body mounts are loosely bolted to the frame with the pads. Then I moved the scuttle till the vent opening was centered. I was able to get the outer edge of the fire wall to line up with the inner sills. The diagonal body mounts do not line up side to side. The passenger side will just need to be slotted a little bit. The driver side is a different story. I will need to add to the flange and relocate the holes. I am not sure this is the right path to take. If i use the diagonal body mounts the front end is setting on the frame crooked If I center it I will need to rework the diagonal body mounts. Here are some pictures that might help with my description.
    IMG_0648.jpgPassenger inner foot bellbottom offset repaired edge of fire wall cut our ready for patch
    IMG_0715.jpgdriver side rust to be repaired as was done to passenger side
    IMG_0720.jpginner footwell flange to be repaired after fire wall was cut out.
    IMG_0721.jpgmore damage to repair, remove cage nut. weld up hole, new cage nut to be replaced.
    IMG_0783.jpgflange repaired
    IMG_0785.jpgDriver side fire wall outer edge repair
    IMG_0797.jpgfront end on the frame.
    IMG_0799.jpgpassenger side clamped to the inner sill.
    IMG_0800.jpgPassenger side firewall outer edge lines up with inner sill
    IMG_0801.jpgdriver side fire wall edge lines up with the inner sill.
    IMG_0802.jpgpassenger side diagonal body mount . holes need to be slotted.
    IMG_0804.jpgdriver side diagonal body mount. flange added to and holes relocated.
    Frank
    1960 TR3A TS61324
    rust bucket, work in progress, future road warrior

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Ah...the "sill" in the title confused me. We are talking about the mounts in the engine room! Is it an illusion, or is the frame diagonal on the driver's side a bit bent inward? For those holes to not line up, either the body or frame is twisted. You will have to figure out which and bend it back into place. I would not modify those mounts, as the holes are already oversize, and providing even more misalignment could bite you later down the restoration. Best to fix the bend now before moving forward.

    I like the idea of running the laser, but I have to say it would have just depressed me during my restoration. These cars are not that straight, even when new. I started with centers and diagonal strings and such, but quickly realized it was a losing battle. You have to average all the crookedness into a final shell that looks good, but doesn't necessarily have a perfect gig line. If the frame is straight, then it becomes the gage for the body as you reassemble it.
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    I spent a month streighting the frame last year and was within 1/16" from the service manual drawing, so I find it had to believe the frame is off but with these cars anything is possible. I will go back and check the frame and see what I find. I am coming to see why these restorations take so long. Yesterday I was encouraged that we were moving forward and now I don't even want to go to the shop. Lots more measuring. Frank
    Frank
    1960 TR3A TS61324
    rust bucket, work in progress, future road warrior

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    I second what John said you shouldn't modify the body mounts but adjust the panels to line them up. While on the subject of the inner sills, they have the outrigger brackets welded to them and it would be a good idea to add some weld to make sure they are secure. I had one break away when I was doing my final welding but didn't find it until I turned the body over to finish welding the underside, was not happy about that.

    Graham
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Thank you Graham, I feel that the frame is good. I donít have a lot of confidence in the new inner sills, so once I feel that they are ok then yes I will be rewelding them. I am going to take your and Johnís advice and start over and see how it looks adjusting the body to the body mounts. It takes me out of my comfort zone when things donít match up side to side. This is just part of the learning curve. Frank

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    You often seem to take two steps forward and one back sometimes two back on these projects but usually we do not have a time deadline. Did I get that wrong One forward two back at times.
    The end result is defiantly worth the agro.

    Your panel repair work looks great. Probable easier working with the body in pieces. Most of the bottom edge of the drivers side foot well was rusted away and repaired with fiberglass by the PO. Cut it out and welded in a patch.

    David
    TR3A TS75524L

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Thank you David. Repairing the cancerous rust is no problem. Figuring out what is correct and what is not is the challenge, and since they werenít perfect to begin with adds another factor to the equation. It is amazing that anyone could restore more than one of these cars in their lifetime. I donít have a deadline but I would like to get it done while I am able to enjoy it. 2 1/2 years into it and a long way to go. Frank.

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    My guess is the tub is a little twisted in the engine bay in the lower section where they bolt up to the frame. Like John said, the car was never perfect plus IMO the factory did it every day, and knew where they could cheat things over and were good at it. Was the car together when you got it Frank? If not, there are many explanations for it. Mine was off also; I slotted a little and used a sleever bar and push it over some; you can always slot some later. I would put the tie piece in also. Does your transmission tunnel line up with the holes in the firewall that might give you an idea which side if off more or find a more happy medium? Not a big deal in my view.

    The engine bay mounts have always been a mystery to me. The aluminum spacer with that slot and the 2 rubber mounts. Either somebody really thought about it or fixed something after the facts were all gathered. The aluminum piece with the slot can be pushed in after the long bolt is in the hole with the rubber shims/pads in place and the bolts lose.

    I like this picture because it shows how the body keys together with the different section panels. See how the sheet metal goes right past the inner sill and the kick panel sits on sill like a straight edge .IMO you are golden right there.
    steve
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    IT's when you get the most frustrated that you end up doing your best work. Take a day off with the family...your mind will still be working on it in the background. When you come back the light bulb will eventually go off.

    When a car gets tweeked in a fender bender, the damage always starts at a single point...although you may find collateral damage elsewhere that seems to be worse. You can bang around for days on the collateral problems, but miss the actual point of damage causing it in the first place. Once you find the actual point that is off, all the collateral falls into place.

    One nice thing is these bodies are very weak. With the right leverage, you can frequently just grab hold and pull an area back into place. You may be able to pull those angled mounts apart pretty easily so the holes match the frame.
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Wise words John I totally agree. I have been building and remolding since I was 16 and had many 19th nervous break downs- not that Frank is stressed; he seems highly capable of getting her done. If I were doing Franks job, I would set the other side like he did in the picture I posted because I see those as given points then look at the rest of the holes and highs and lows around that area. I mean heck, there is a lot of metal missing.

    David makes a good point also about 2 forward and 1 back. I refer to them as dry fits- I usually fit a kitchen together twice before I start nailing and plumbing.

    Frank take the break, but remember many of us are self- quarantined and the forum is slow.
    steve

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    I walk every evening and I find that when I am walking I am thinking through a problem. Many answers came to me away from the car.
    Not saying take up walking just take a break and things may come to you while you are doing something else.

    David
    TR3A TS75524L

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Frank,
    i am presently involved with a 59 TR3 the has been involved in a wreck. The last two pictures of the body mounting bolts located in the engine compartment remind me of a caution that I ran up against. The body of my car did suffer a collision and I believe it rolled as well. Definitely some twisting has been done. I have corrected the frame first and inner body panels next. BUT the true fit is what the car looks like with the outer panels , such as the front fenders , the nose piece and the hood ( bonnet) on the car. Just like the real fit of of the floor and sill replacements is how the doors fit.
    If it is possible to test fit as much of the outer panels along the way, it my guide you in your decisions.
    As to the last two pictures showing the engine bay bolt holes-- the body can very easily be "pulled together" with a clamp located above the shock towers to move the body over the frame holes. There are lots of ways pull and push the body
    to make it fit. You just need to make the best decision as to where you want it to be.
    Lots of fun.
    Charley
    1962 TR4
    1963 TR4
    1959 TR3A A work in progress.

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    I want to thank all of you for your kind words of encouragement! I had a couple of days set aside to make some progress only to see the time evaporate. All tho the time is gone I still feel a sense of progress. I did not get done what I thought I could but now I have a direction to follow and with your suggestions I will get this part of the puzzle put together. Unfortunately grass season is here and mower maintenance and cutting grass will slow my car time. For your information I ride a late 50's early 60's Yazoo YR 60 mower. no safety switches, no drink holder, no lights, no electronic ignition. usually can be fixed with a trip to the local hardware store. Rebuilt it 25 years ago and still runs great. Thanks again for all the kindness. Frank
    Frank
    1960 TR3A TS61324
    rust bucket, work in progress, future road warrior

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    IMG_0809.jpgalignment from the front
    IMG_0810.jpgalignment from the rear (camera angle is a little skewed) Transmission tunnel mounts up no problem and is dead center.

    I started over and went by the body mount holes and was able to get all the holes to match up pretty close without having to move any holes or slot any holes. The inner sills are centered and match front to back. The passenger inner sill mounting brackets are spot on, The driver side mounting brackets are welded on 1/4" back from the ones on the passenger side. ( so much for quality control ) I am going to take John's advice and slot those holes. When I check the scuttle vent it is about 1/4" off center to the passenger side. The inner wings are more like 1/8" to the passenger side. for the most part everything looks to be within 1/4" depending on where you measure. Tonight I started bolting on the wings. The front holes that bolt from inside match up pretty good but the holes that bolt from the top, some do some don't. This was the first of many times I am sure I will bolt the wings on. I will get better at it with practice. For now I am just trying to get an idea as to how repairs to the car are going and does it seem to be fairly straight and square. I will have more pictures and questions as to how pieces should fit and how to fix them. Frank
    Frank
    1960 TR3A TS61324
    rust bucket, work in progress, future road warrior

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    Jedi Trainee Graham H's Avatar
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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    That's looking good Frank, keep up the good work.

    Graham
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Glad you're back at work. It sounds like everything is starting to line up...1/4" is well within the limit to look straight, which is the determining factor on these cars.
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: Inner sill opinion

    Looks better than mine. When I purchase my battery box, the first one I got was a Heritage model out of England, and it did not match the angle of the firewall. The next one I got was from TRF and it fit perfect.

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