Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

Discussions of Triumph motor cars

  1. #1
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    I've done everything around me going forward with my car. I've blasted, painted, upholstered, cleaned, found replacements and even found my wheels, hubs, top frame, rag-top and carpet. All the little parts are cleaned an sorted. With the exception of some gaskets and painting, I've got it ready to move forward.

    Except for mounting the body on the frame.

    I've been avoiding it. Let's face it, I am still a novice at this. I've learned so much in the past few months, but every time I start to get on the tub, I find something else to do. I've run out of things to do (unless I move forward).

    So here it is: One sill, A and B pillars, and floor on Driver's side are not connected. No pads or spacers installed and until Sunday, nothing was bolted down. The passenger side floor pan has not bolt holes (wasn't filled with fiberglass at least) and it looks like the rear mounts are sort of missing.



    the PO at least purchased the brackets but didn't install them



    So here I am, with the tub laying on the frame (front bolted down in six points) and can't figure out how to move forward. I've been advised to brace the frame before I pick the tub up, but I can't pick up the tub until I get the sill squared away. I can't get the mounts welded in without picking up the body (or maybe I can?). I'm in the dark here, and though I love my dad (owner of a 61) he has no clue either..

    Two thoughts: We break the welds holding the rearward floor and B pillar, then pick up the rear part of the tub, or spot weld (in a few places) what I have, brace the body 9 ways to Sunday, then pick the whole thing up, and worry about alignment of the tub later.

    I'm might make the shout-out and invite anyone who is interested to come on by for some cold ones and grub, with use of tools and compressor (and most likely the lift) included (once we get the tub squared). If anyone is interested in hanging out and supervising, give me a shout.

    All the best
    Ron
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  2. #2
    Yoda CJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arlington, TX, USA
    Posts
    5,257
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    26 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Hey Ron...

    These bodies are best built from the middle outward. So, I would recommend not worrying about the rear mounts until you get the parts installed in the following order:

    1) Inner sills, both installed and mounted to the frame you plan to use. Use the recommended "pads" during the mounting. The firewall shims and pads should also be bolted to the 45 degree frame suspension supports at this time, in order to locate the body properly to the frame.
    2) "B" pillar
    3) Restore the doors
    4) Use the door(s) in relation to the "B" pillar to set the position of the "A" pillar(s).
    5) Floors, installed and mounted to the frame with recommended pads

    Only after ALL of the above are installed and bolted to the frame should you look at the rear mounts. Your body is solid enough to move around and even remove by hand or lift. Just do not strap it to a trailer and go bouncing down the road and it will be fine. Since you are already well into the disassembly without the bracing installed, I would not bother with the bracing until, maybe, later in the build.
    John

    1955 TR2

  3. #3
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    John:
    Unfortunately, the PO did not put any pads or shims in place that I could see. In fact, all the original pads and shims were in a baggie marked as such along with all new pads and shims.

    I thought I might go on with bolting the front down without pads (sills and pillars and floor pan are already welded) working towards the back. The first time I put the inner sill in, bolted it down and rested the body (front) on it, it started to twist the sill. Bolting it down up front took some of the weight off and the sills didn't twist. I did put the firewall shims in though (for support).

    Can you tell from the first pic if most of the bracket is there? Repair part (second pic) has sides and a bottom. There are sides on the tub but no bottom (where it bolts to the frame). Eventually I will need to address it, so will that whole piece get welded in, or just the bottom of it (cut off). The PO had a plan (that doesn't match what is the correct way) and I can't figure out what it was.

    I put the doors on the front and the gaps and lines are pretty close and they open and close without forcing. Drivers could be a little closer at the latch (about an eighth of an inch wide currently) with the back still floating. If I put the pads in on the Driver's side, I'll have to go under the tub on the passenger side and put spacers there too. The frame strips might have to wait until the tub comes off, after the sills are welded to the pillars.

    You see my confusion. I'll take two steps forward just to take three steps back. Granted, when I take the two steps forward again, they'll be much easier. I'm actually frightened of welding the sills to the A and B pillars. Which is which by the way. I always thought that the A pillar was the front, and the B was the back.

    Ron
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  4. #4
    Yoda CJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arlington, TX, USA
    Posts
    5,257
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    26 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    If you look under the body section in the service manual, you'll see that every mount has a different thickness of pads. My fear is that, if you just bolt the body to the bare frame, then later the pads will "tweak" it in an undesired way as the different thicknesses are added. It sounds like you have the pads...so no reason not to use them as you work.

    As I view the rear mount, the PO seems to have merely sliced the mount off close to the body...but left the spot welded portion on the body. Being anal, I would probably drill the welds and remove the remaining old mounting plate. Then the new mount will go on just like the original. I think that would be faster than trying to trim the new mount to match the remains of the old mount. The less "anal" way would be to just grind down the old mount and weld the new mount over the flat portion of the old, leaving part of the old still on the body. I don't think the extra .025" spacing will affect the body mounting.

    You are right..."A" pillar is the front hinge pillar, and "B" is the latch pillar. Here is the order you MUST line up your driver side. The pax side sounds like it is already together, so reference it as needed to match to the driver side within 1/4" or so. Getting closer than that is rarely possible on these cars. So, here you go:

    1) The sills MUST be the first parts actually bolted to the frame, again using the proper pads and bolt torques.
    2) The rear of the inner sill must first be matched for and aft wise to the front of the inner wing (fender).
    3) This is the "heart" of your rebuild, so run strings every which way to get the body square, and aligned left/right/and for/aft with the frame. Again, 1/4" off on any measurement is great. 3/8" is reasonable. Any more than 3/8" off and you will have to work with it to bring it down.
    4) Tack the sills to the rear wing and the "B" pillar. This will lock your "heart" square and true.

    Now, for the next steps you have to have the doors fully rebuilt and ready for final assembly. Also, don't plan to do the following step with doors from another car!! Every single TR3 door is different, so only use the parts you plan to have on the finished car.

    5) Install the doors onto the "A" pillars using the hinges...only medium tight on the screws. Install the door latches to fix the rear position of the doors. Place the door assemblies into the latches...and when fully happy with the rear and bottom gaps, tack the "A" pillars into position.

    Note: step 5 is absolutely critical, as all measurements that catch the eye on a finished car are fixed by the position of the doors to the "A" and "B" pillars. It would not be uncommon for you to spend an entire week or two just on this single operation! Do this well and your later work aligning door gaps will be much easier. Get it off a lot, and it will be very difficult to correct your gaps later.

    6) Install your floors, and repair any areas of the firewall or tub that needs it.
    7) At this point you have the "heart" locked down. You can move on to the front and rear body mounts.
    8) Now you can add the bolt on body parts, building out from the center.

    On some car styles you can alter the assembly order. With the TR2/3, if you alter the order above, you will work your way into a jam later, often having to peal your work back apart to get to the missed steps. I don't think you're stuck at all, as your car looks exactly as I would expect at your stage. You're just being naturally cautious, as it IS frightening dealing with these parts! But stick to the order, working one step at a time and you will get there just fine. If you get frustrated, just step back for a day and let your mind figure everything out. When you come back you will have a fresh view and renewed "vigor".
    John

    1955 TR2

  5. #5
    Yoda
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    washington state
    Posts
    3,233
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    27 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    So you have one side with an inner sill in place sitting on the frame and no inner sill on the other side? What is the side without the sill sitting on? Does one side have a new floor?

  6. #6
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Currently it is sitting on a bolted down sill.

    Before it looked like this


    P1015967.jpg
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  7. #7
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    PO or someone dropped the tub back on the frame after DS sill, floor and both rockers were removed. Rear mounts are both partially cut away. New floor pan and rockers and new sill were in the back seat. Prop shaft tunnel was non existent but Frank Canale made me a new one.

    I wanted to pick up the whole tub to get all my spacers in place but was afraid of too much flex. I've been putting it off since I wasn't confident in my next step.

    Though I cant see it, I'm pretty sure there aren't any spacers currently installed. All of the old ones are sitting in a bag, and all of the new ones are in bags on my bench.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  8. #8
    Yoda
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    washington state
    Posts
    3,233
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    27 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    How could there be any shims in place because the shims go between the inner sill and the outrigger of the frame. What do the out riggers of the frame look like? The other shims on the back and front are not as critical as the center and can go in later. The inner sill is a straight edge for the tub to sit on and the back and front of the car will follow that line once the sill is installed. Do you have a welder? If you do not, you can screw the inner sill in place at the lip of front kick panel along the top to hold it and at the area behind the B post on the bottom to hold it while you get the door opening correct. Do you have pictures of the body area behind the B post?

  9. #9
    Yoda
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    washington state
    Posts
    3,233
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    27 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Sorry, I did look up at the above post and see the picture that shows the floor and sill are in on the passenger side. Seems to me you need to be the other sill in. Those shims are meant to be moved around. The manual suggest 4 shims on each outrigger, but you arrange them by how many needed; they help you adjust the tub a little. You need to lift the tub up about 2 inches and look on the out rigger and see if there are any shims or you should be able to just jack the whole car up and look.

  10. #10
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    The problem was the PO put no shims on the other side, or bolts or anything. I have the sill and floor, but can't really put them in unless the other side is bolted down and shimmed.

    So to recap: Tub minus DS sill and floor and no rear mounts, dropped on chassis and nothing bolted down and not welded at the A and B pillars on the DS.

    I just want to make sure that I do the best that I can the first time and have to redo the stuff the least. The tub will be coming back off the frame eventually so that I can paint underneath.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  11. #11
    Yoda
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    washington state
    Posts
    3,233
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    27 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    You can lift the tub up with small jack and put 4 shims in on each out rigger--- no big deal; you are going to moving shims around until you get the doors correct anyway, maybe 5 here and 3 there. IMHO you do not want it bolted tight anyway; maybe some wire so it does not slide off when you lift the driver side up. Put some wire through the holes and leave the tub a little those so you have some give and lift the driver side up and either put some lumber on the frame or on jack stands or some cribbing and try a fit the sill. That is where you are stuck.

  12. #12
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Actually I thought I was stuck worrying about putting too much twist in the frame from picking up the tub trying to bolt it down so I could eventually pick the whole thing up for paint.

    I'm not stuck. I probably never was. My brain was stuck worrying about making a mistake.

    Thanks to all here, I'm more confident in the direction though the execution remains to be seen.

    The PS door/sill/pillars are currently awesome but floor pan wasnt bolted down and I was hoping to keep what I had. It'll be cool though. I can't wait for Sunday.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  13. #13
    Yoda CJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arlington, TX, USA
    Posts
    5,257
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    26 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Just for planning...2 strong men can lift the tub in your current condition. Or 4 weak men very easily! I would not try to lift it alone or with a hoist in its current condition, as it will flex too much and could permanently bend it. That's not fatal, but will leave one more thing to fix!?!

    Realize that placing the tub on the frame was simply the PO's way of consolidating the project for sale. It has nothing to do with his restoration effort. I personally would pull it off before doing anything...to look all over and, of course, install the pads before you start working.

    I recommend using the factory recommended number of pads while doing a frame off like yours. Later down the road, you can alter the number to fix issues that pop up. But best to start "neutral" as you work.
    John

    1955 TR2

  14. #14
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    And that was my big concern, flexing the tub.

    By the way, are there 4 spots in the rear (aft of the floor, including the rearmost) mounting points? I saw a kit in the TRF catalog but can't find one in my stuff. I want to make sure i get all the right spacers in place before I try to align the pillars for welding.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  15. #15
    Yoda CJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arlington, TX, USA
    Posts
    5,257
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    6
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    26 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Aft of the floor there are the 2 mounts, which you have in the picture above, which use pads. Then, the bumperettes have a single, very long bolt each, which passes through the holes in the rear apron and bolt to the frame with no pads.

    Oh...I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it is best to have ALL the mounts at least snug (with the exception of the front and rear bumper mounts) before installing any new body parts. Just a fraction of a degree for the rear apron to lift will be enough to throw off your rear door gaps. Same for the front if you don't have those installed.

    By now I think you're getting the importance of having everything mounted as it will be in the final car before final welding anything...tacking is OK, but save the final for a fully installed tub.
    John

    1955 TR2

  16. #16
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    That's the plan then! But does that mean wings and bonnets too? That's what I feel like youre saying, and it makes sense, even just to tack weld.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  17. #17
    Yoda
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    washington state
    Posts
    3,233
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    27 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Randall and John have been some of my best teachers, but because I am carpenter, I would basically leave the tub where it is and maybe lift it 2 inches and stick a 10 --2x4 between the tub and the frame back about 6 inches from the front edge to where the floor stops let it stick out there some also and let it run out the back on that drip edge. I would also get a pack of shims to help line the tub out and perhaps with some one by one material if need to see just how close the sill is to fitting. It does not have to level only lined. If you lift it now, where are you going to put it?

    But before I did that, if the A and B post are welded on driver side I would hang the door to make sure the door hole is correct or at least big enough. I am not sure how big the hole is on a post 60K car, but I would find that number.

    no keep the weight down.

  18. #18
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Ok, no extra weight.
    As to where it's going when off the frame, I was planning on using the lift to get it off the frame and while on the lift get some paint on the underside after, of course, getting the rocker panels welded on.

    Actually, there's a bunch of stuff I'd like to check on when I get the tub lifted. I'd thought of getting the engine/transmission mounted so I wouldn't be tempted to scratch or scrape the body installing it afterwards. I'd like to at least visually check brake and fuel lines and the hand brake system. Mostly it's the paint and mounting the engine.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

  19. #19
    Yoda
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    washington state
    Posts
    3,233
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    27 Posts

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    The more I think about that car was cut in half, so IMHO the best thing is too jug it up from the frame. You will need some pins in the frame hole on the front and back to set the overall length of the car. The inner sills are a chief structural member for the body tub. You will have to either leave the car on the frame or make a giant template to work on, so leave it on the frame. Can you get a drift pin in the front and rear body mount on the passenger side and the DS ? You are not ready for any kind of painting you need to weld first.

    If I were you, I would check the overall length of the car with 4 drift pins 2 PS and 2 DS if they fit into the holes then hang the PS door to check that the hole is suitable for a door to open and close. You do not need a fender on to check that. If all of that is good, I would get DS sill in both hands and walk over and see how close it is to going in right where everything is sitting.

    I am guessing you might need some welding practice because you want to paint before you weld. You do not need to be a welder just a good fitter. In boat building there is a welder and a fitter. A good fitter is more important than a welder because learning to weld takes less time and you can practice on anything. The fitter job is harder on the back and brain; the welder has to breathe the smoke and eat the grinding, but again a good welder is very important. If you get this car fitted up nice you can find a good welder who will come over with his machine for a good price and will probably help you fit a little, very little, and weld it perfect and quick for a good price.

  20. #20
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    FREDERICKSBURG VIRGINIA
    Posts
    123
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Help, I am stuck, or think I'm stuck

    Umm, where'd you get the idea that I was ready to paint? No, I'm just thinking ahead.

    At first I had intended to pick the whole thing up before welding because of the lack of rear mounts. I felt that I needed those rear mounts to square up the tub. That got me into the spiral of what ifs and catch 22s.

    My welding isnt pro level, but it's not too shabby if I do say do myself. I'm confident that my tack welds will be sufficient to get the tub squared enough for floor pan in so I can brace the tub and pick it up.

    Paint? Yeah. On the bottom. Several coats if I can manage it. The tub is currently in primer only.
    I must keep telling myself, it's a journey, not a race...

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •