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Clutch trouble

pdplot

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On my return from Florida, took both the TR6 and the Alfa for test rides. The Triumph ran flawlessly except for the rough ride caused by our terrible roads here. The Alfa. Ah yes. I violated the cardinal rule of flying - never take off with a known malfunction. I know the clutch was dodgy since I couldn't put it into any gear with the engine running, but once under way, it shifts normally - until the return trip today. I stopped at a park in new Canaan to take a 15 minute walk, and on my return, the clutch became virtually inoperative. The pedal felt loose until near the floor when it seemed to catch - sort of. I crept home in 2nd and third gear, 4-way flashers flashing, stopping each time to shut off the engine to choose a gear. On top of a hill, it refused to come out of first gear and I sat there with 2 cars behind me, helpless. Finally I managed to yank the long lever out of first and I had to start off in second gear, revving like mad to prevent stalling. I had to make the garage on the first shot, way over to the right so the Subaru would fit alongside. I checked out the clutch master - the fluid looked a bit low, so I topped it up - but no change. It looks like the pressure plate is not releasing fully. My guess is a spring has fallen out and jammed against the clutch plate - but - why did it shift normally once under way? It was only impossible to select any gear with engine running. Does anyone have a contrary opinion before I bite the bullet and tow the thing to my repair shop. I do have a new slave cylinder on hand if needed.
 

Gliderman8

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Have you looked at the clutch slave cylinder to see if it is operating as it should?
 
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pdplot

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Not yet. I was so disgusted the last thing I wanted to do was lay under the car while my poor wife pumps the clutch pedal. Plus I have some stomach problems for the last 3 days. I may get around to it late tomorrow as I have plans most of the day. Hydraulic clutches are great when they work but more things can go wrong than with a clutch rod or cable. That said, my TR6 clutch has been perfect for the 22 years I've had the car. I shouldn't say that - might jinx the clutch.
 

vette

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pd, if it was working some on your drive then it stopped completely I would blame hydraulics before I blame a mechanical issue. Also since it was setting awhile i believe the hydraulics went away while sitting. I presume you have not seen any fluid on the garage floor. Give the thing a good bleed and see what it does. At this point you don't know know if it is the master or the slave. See whats wet.
 
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pdplot

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Update. I'm in a catch 22 situation. Clutch is totally inoperative in that flooring pedal does not disengage transmission. Start it up in gear with clutch floorboarded and it moves, necessitating a quick shutoff. Because the car is almost against the right garage wall, I can't lay underneath to see if the clutch lever is moving and if I roll the car out of the garage, I'll need two strong bodies to push it back in up a slight incline - which I don't have. As you may have heard, old age sucks. So it looks like a call to a garage is needed - if I can find one that knows how to work on Alfas and is a reasonable distance away.
 

vette

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pd, If the car moves as you describe then we know that the clutch plate and the pressure plate are in their "engaged" position. When you push on the clutch pedal it is suppose to "disengage" the clutch that obviously is not happening.
My first reaction is that the hydraulics aren't working and I would say to buy a master cylinder and a slave cylinder and take it to ANY COMPETENT SHOP and have them install said parts and bleed well. We know that tuning an Alfa can be a unique experience but just putting a clutch system together is just common assembly stuff. Any competent mechanic can do the clutch. Look at me, I'm not even a competent mechanic and I can do it. Ah, Ah, Ah.
Well their is one more possibility. And that is that the clutch plate is stuck to the flywheel from sitting for a while. This can be remedied sometimes easily but it does take an individual with a certain amount of "finesse". But you need to get the car outside with some straight line running room. You point the car in a safe direction with room to spare. You push in the clutch pedal, start the engine in a higher gear, when the car starts to go you punch the gas pedal. Keep punching the gas pedal. Hopefully as soon as the torque from the high gear, and rear wheels trying to bite hits the clutch, the clutch will break free and the engine will rev high on its own. Then you will have a clutch again. Since your Alfa didn't sit for that long of a period I would guess that the clutch will break free quite easily.
When I bought my Healey about 20 years ago the clutch was frozen to the flywheel. the car had been sitting in a damp basement garage for 15 years. After I got the car running with new brakes and carbs rebuilt, I found that the clutch was stuck. It took me about 3 or 4 week-ends with many attempts each week-end and finally it freed up. Now 20 years later, I am still using the same clutch. So yes, I guess you need to see it the slave is moving at all but if the clutch is stuck to the flywheel I'm not sure you would see any movement. Maybe buy the new master and slave and take it to "ANY COMPETENT MECHANIC" and tell them to fix it short of removing the engine. Don't try to rebuild the master or slave, that is a waist of time. good luck. Dave.
 
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pdplot

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1. When I first pushed the clutch pedal on the Triumph, it broke free with a small bang. Fine thereafter.
2. Alfa started in neutral but could not shift into any gear because of grinding. Shifted into reverse, started car, let out the clutch and backed up normally. Tried to shift into first to go out the driveway and could not because of grinding. Shut off engine, put into first started car, let out clutch and drove up the driveway. Repeated the procedure after making sure coast was clear, drove off in first and all the way to Irwin Park in New Canaan, about 7 miles, shifting normally all the way with no grinding save for the usual second gear Alfa crunch if you try to hurry the shift. Restarting the car, the clutch pedal went dead and right to the floor and I had to drive home at 30 mph, shutting off the engine each time I came to a stop. There doesn't appear to be any fluid leak and pumping the clutch pedal does nothing. If the clutch plate was stuck, it couldn't have shifted normally between gears (I've been afraid to try no-clutch shifting with this car although I once drove an MG TD all the way from Philly to CT on the NJ Turnpike without the clutch.) My son claims the clutch was checked out by Luciano and was fine. Bottom line - I contacted the Greenwich shop by email and hope to have him flatbed the car next week with instructions to at least replace the slave cylinder if not the master and if that doesn't work, the clutch itself.
 

vette

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pd, I have witnessed that a master cylinder will fail and not leak. I actually can't say that I have ever seen a slave cylinder fail and not leak. Mostly the slaves leak quite easily.
 

DavidApp

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It really does sound like a hydraulic failure.
If you are alone working on the clutch can you get your phone under the car and try to video the clutch lever moving? I do not know the Alfa so I may be way off here.

David
 
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pdplot

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My phone is a dinosaur AT & T flip phone. No video. I could replace the master cylinder myself but the slave is out. My aging back won't allow me to lay under the car and do any work. So its off to the shop if he can take me. And $$$.
 

DrEntropy

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Another possibility is the arm from slave to its pivot point. The arms are known to crack at the pivot pin (a ball and socket affair) and gradually over time and use the cracks propagate to the center. From outside the arm looks like it's working with the slave but is actually just bending from the pivot to the slave, not affecting the T/O bearing at all and requiring a trans R&R for replacement or welding to repair. If that's the case, a new pressure plate, driven plate and throw-out bearing should be considered as well. This failure is one I've seen and repaired on a number of Alfas, including one of my own.
 
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pdplot

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Possible indeed. I wonder if that arm can be purchased separately or is even available? It will have to wait for work to be done - by somebody else. I haven't heard from the repair shop I left a message with. There is an Alfa specialist recommended by Luciano but he's up in Norfolk, CT near Lime Rock - almost 2 hours away on Rte. 7 and may not be in business any more. My local guy here in town may be retiring but he's done work on sports cars before and is familiar with wire wheels and manual transmissions. "Classic" cars are great when they work but a royal PITA when they don't, especially when you can no longer work on them yourself.
 
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pdplot

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Update. Turns out my local guy Sal has worked on a Spider - his own, a 1978 lying under a blanket in a room just off his shop, with transmission on the floor next to it. He's willing to take it on, so I'll call a flatbed hauler to deliver the car to him and hope for the best. If I'm lucky, it'll turn out to be one of the following: bad M/C, rotted flex line, bad S/C or clutch fork. There are no visible leaks. If I'm not lucky...$$$$$. Wish me luck.
 

DrEntropy

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Very likely one of those four or a combination. But again, once the box is out, it'd be worth a new clutch, P-plate & T/O bearing even if they aren't the real issue. The only thing that generally goes bad on those gearboxes internally is the second gear synchro. And truthfully, you should be able to live with that. Just avoid "speed-shifting" into second.
 
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pdplot

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No speed shifting between first and second for sure. The synchros were supplied by Porsche and many Alfistis feel that they were purposely defective. There appears to be no cure other than pausing in neutral for a bit. The TR6 gearbox is better - but only 4 speed unless you have O/D - which mine does not.
 
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pdplot

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Update on Alfa repair. I decided to take the car to a guy in Greenwich who has an Alfa himself and runs a repair shop. This is the one with the Veritas I posted a picture of. He also had a flatbed and that's how the car was taken away a week ago Wednesday. He sent me an email that the last part had arrived and he was putting the car back together again. He estimated the repair bill at between $1,500.00 and $2k. We'll see. In other news, I had a mole removed from near my right elbow that turned out to be a melanoma. Now I have to have surgery done to make sure it hasn't spread. I'm headed for Sloan Kettering in New York this week to have my pacemaker checked out and next week for surgery. The Alfa is coming out of the shop and I'm going in. Wish me luck on both counts.
 

DrEntropy

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DavidApp

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Good Luck with both the pace maker check up and the surgery.
I presume the pace maker job is just a scan, battery check and possibly software update.

David
 

Gliderman8

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Best of luck.
 
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