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Thread: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

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    Yoda
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    no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    We I got it started with no leaks, but the generator is not charging. I shut the car down after a couple of minutes and polarized the generator which I forgot to do. Now I have the battery back on the charger and will go and try and start it again later. If generator is still not charging, I am actually not sure what to do next. The generator is good and regulator is new also, but they have been on the shelf for a while.


    I understand the regulator needs to be adjusted. This one has yellow paint on the screws to hold them in place, so I assume it was preset, but again I understand, I should not the trust the fact I think it is adjusted and should check it to make sure.

    steve

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    There's a pretty decent set of step-by-step instructions at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...Y5ZjQxZTA2NGFm

    Just do parts 1 and 2; 3 and 4 don't apply to a TR. Although it calls for a "moving coil" voltmeter, you can use a digital meter. Just some of the tests (when the regulator is regulating), you have to allow for the reading jumping around somewhat; where a moving coil would show a nice steady reading.

    Also, if you come to a test that fails, troubleshoot and repair that failure; then start over again. Later tests rely on the functions tested by earlier tests, so you may not get accurate results if you just run through all of them. And in spite of Occam, it's not uncommon to have more than one problem.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Thanks Randall I will study that. I did not mention there is a 2 amp discharge at the amp meter. Would that make a difference?

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Probably just the battery running the ignition; so normal given that the generator isn't generating.

    Also, I assume you've tried revving the engine up a bit. Might take 1000 or even 1200 rpm to get the cutout to pull in and start charging.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Thanks Randall for your help. In the past I would just replace components by throwing parts it, but this time I am looking deeper plus I need the education. Anyways, I unhooked the generator, and I am going to install a volt meter to D post and ground for a positive ground system with + or red to ground—Correct? What kind of reading should I get at 1000rpm?

    On the initial startup, I might have not have gone much past 1200 rpm, so maybe the voltage reg would have worked had I accelerated more, but I did not like the discharge at the amp meter and the red light on.

    steve

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Generators by nature don't work well at low rpm; it's not at all unusual for the red light to come back on at a low idle even when everything is working well. Just how well they do work depends on manufacturing tolerances and such, so it does vary a little from unit to unit. Plus, for the first test given, it has no field current, so the voltage produced is just from the residual magnetism leftover from the last time it worked (or being polarized).

    But 1000 engine rpm should be enough to show at least a volt or two with the field open.

    What you are testing here is really the first step in normal operation. The generator never gets field current from the battery; instead it has to supply it's own field current. This presents a "chicken or egg" problem at startup; what happens is that it starts to generate just a little (the 2 volts you're looking for in this test) with no field current. That small output normally gets fed to the field windings through the regulator contacts. The resulting current causes a higher output, so more current, and hopefully the output gets high enough (around 12 volts) for the cutout relay to pull in and connect the output to the battery. The book says that should happen between 1050 and 1200 rpm.

    The red light on the dash essentially monitors the state of the cutout relay, by comparing the generator output voltage to battery voltage. When the relay closes, the light goes out.

    Generators work on "Faraday's law", which basically states that waving a wire through a magnetic field (or a magnetic field through a wire) will generate an electrical current in the wire. How much depends on how strong the magnetic field is, and how rapidly the wire moves. If you've ever tried the science lab experiment, you'll know that it take a lot of motion (and a lot of turns of wire) to get anything at all.

    If not, just think of it as a dancing bear. What's amazing is not how well the bear dances, but that it dances at all

    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    I'll let Randall cover all that EE stuff...

    ...what I heard is you have it running! Congrats! How's it sound?
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Ok and thanks again Randall, I have 3 to 4 volts at 2000rpm. I must say the next step sounds wrong. Do they really want to me to hook the two yellow wires together and start the car? If it was anyone other than very very few people, and a quality book that ask me to do that, I would examine someone’s motive. Anyways, when it cools down I will do it—if that is what it says.
    steve

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    It sounded great when I first started it. However, the oil gauge leaked 2 twice and I think I gave the starter a stroke cranking the engine for oil pressure with the plugs out 3 times; it makes that ugly sound when it stops and the battery is dying fast. Heck I rebuilt that to, and they are pain to rebuild. My gut tells me there is brush build up on the armature from all the spinning and that the rubber sleeve is ok or maybe the armature needs professional turning, I hope. Plus other little stuff like the jets did not return on the choke, so they probably need to be polished.

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    That is the test; basically using the generator output to supply the field current. Don't rev too high during the test, although it says "full scale", you're really just checking that it reaches into the 15-20 volt region. ("Full scale" is 20 volts on the specified voltmeter.) It should take less than 1500 rpm to get to 20 volts.

    Quote Originally Posted by sp53 View Post
    Ok and thanks again Randall, I have 3 to 4 volts at 2000rpm. I must say the next step sounds wrong. Do they really want to me to hook the two yellow wires together and start the car? If it was anyone other than very very few people, and a quality book that ask me to do that, I would examine someone’s motive. Anyways, when it cools down I will do it—if that is what it says.
    steve
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Quote Originally Posted by sp53 View Post
    However, the oil gauge leaked 2 twice
    There is supposed to be a little leather washer in the coupling between the line and oil gauge. Easy to lose if you don't know it's there. Repros are available from TRF P/N 54902; or I found a nylon flat washer that fit and seems to be working well.

    Did you change the bushings in the starter? I wouldn't expect a worn or dirty commutator to make noise.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Just to be sure, I hook the wires back to the generator and then I alligator clip or hook a wire that loops to join them D & A together on the back of the generator and at the same time I have the volt meter on the D terminal (positive ground) and ground.

    What I thought on the starter was it kept running a bit because of the buildup and made that recoil noise. But yea, a bushing would be easier and I got one from Tropic 6 I think will fit.

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Are you working on test 3, or test 4? Test 3 calls for the leads to be reconnected at the generator (then left that way for the remaining tests). It's basically just a repeat of test 1, except using the armature lead.

    Then test 4 calls for the two leads to be connected, where they were disconnected from the control box (not at the generator). It's just a repeat of test 2, except with the leads in the circuit.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    That is what I thought test 2 was?

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Test 2
    Connect meter as in test 1
    Link thermals D&F on Generator
    Gradually speedup engine to fast tick over speed
    If an amp meter is used to link together D&F the reading should not be more than 2 amps when normal voltage is register in system.

    I wonder if I should try one of my other regulators. I think the generator is working fine. To much to lose in translation. Doing test from books I often make mistakes.

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    You're right, you've already established that the generator is good in tests 1 and 2.

    Now in tests 3 and 4, you're really just checking that the leads are good (not open, not grounded, actually connected to generator). Tests 3 and 4 call for the voltmeter to be connected through the armature lead, while test 4 also runs field current through both armature and field leads.

    Then test 5 goes on to test the ground lead on the control box. Etc, etc.

    Up to you, of course. Learning something new can be kind of painful; but it's actually pretty easy and once you've done it a few times, you'll know how. I've always been kind of allergic to just throwing new parts at a problem, especially since new parts are so often defective. But sometimes you do what ya gotta do.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    I am up testing this regulator; it is the pretest of the ones I have; that is if it is regulator. I looked in the Haynes manual at how test the regulators and all I really got out of it was to speed the engine up for adjustment and clean the contacts. Clean one with light glass paper and one with emery cloth. How would you proceed?

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Ok I have 13.5 volts between A&E ---I think will go with putting the paper between the contacts on the cut out which is the right side of the regulator—correct? Then put a volt meter on D and ground. Start the engine and rev to 3000rpm to read voltage--correct

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Yeah, cutout on the right, near the 'E' terminal. Another way to tell is the cutout has contacts that close when the relay pulls in; while the regulator opens when the relay pulls in.

    2000 engine rpm should be enough (the generator turns faster than the engine). But 3000 won't hurt anything, as long as the voltage remains controlled around 16 volts. This is one of those tests where a digital meter may just around some.
    Randall
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    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Re: no leaks, but the generator is not charging

    Perhaps I need to do test 2 better; I was not clear about how far I got with test 2. I hesitated when I saw they wanted me to hook D&F together and got talking about just installing a new regulator. I thought D&F were the same as the Field and Armature.

    Test 2
    Connect meter as in test 1
    Link thermals D&F on Generator
    Gradually speedup engine to fast tick over speed
    If an amp meter is used to link together D&F the reading should not be more than 2 amps when normal voltage is register in system.


    So to be clear they want me to hook D&F on the generator together and hook a volt meter in there also? I might be starting to get this. Are there actually 3 main components—the field, the armature, and D which is probably the brushes? See for my thinking I was hooking the Field and Armature together, and I would go to direct short, but now it is sounding like I would be closing the points at D&F and getting uncontrolled voltage and not hooking up Field and Armature. Does that make sense?

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