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Oil sump gasket replacement

Lin

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Last time I replaced the cork gasket between the block and the oil sump was about eleven years ago when my engine was rebuilt. The process was quite easy when the block was on an engine stand upside down. This time the engine is in the car and I will need to remove and remount the gaskets and aluminum sump from below. I have a lift so I am figuring that I will place the lift (4 post) on its lowest height setting, slide under the car, and use my floor jack to support the sump as it comes down and to lift it back to the block to reseal.

Is it best to use an adhesive between the cork gasket and block and then something like hylomar between the gasket and the sump? If there is a better gasket sealant to use please advise.

Any other tips are appreciated.

Moss doesn’t show the felt plugs as being available. AH Spares sells them separately. I do need these don’t I? I assume two for the front main and two for the rear main? I am puzzled as to why they wouldn’t be sold with the kit by Moss.

Thanks!

Lin
 

Bob_Spidell

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Just went through this drill due to clobbering my pan. I'm convinced the best technique is to glue the gasket to the removable part, as Steve suggests. I use black silicone adhesive, and put a thin smear of the less adhesive blue silicone on the side of the gasket that faces the block (I do this on valve cover gaskets as well). Make sure the edge of the pan is as flat and straight as possible, and don't overtighten. A little thread sealant on the pan bolts can't hurt.

As for the felt 'cigarettes,' not only are they not available, outside of full gasket sets, they don't work very well. My engine builder squirted black 'Right Stuff' sealant into the holes with a caulking gun--I watched him do it and he told me to be quiet so he could concentrate--with a little extra which should bond with the gasket. Might be harder to do with the engine upright, but I think this helps eliminate a potential oil leak; the felts fill holes between seems of the block and bearing cap (IIRC), and I don't think they seal the seams very well if at all. FWIW, I just checked; I still have no oil coming out of the hole in the bellhousing (mostly due to the PCV system, I think).
 

nevets

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"I have a lift so I am figuring that I will place the lift (4 post) on its lowest height setting, slide under the car, and use my floor jack to support the sump as it comes down and to lift it back to the block to reseal."

How heavy is the aluminum sump? Is it possible to put the floor jack on a rolling cart or some other stand, which would allow you to work at a more comfortable height?
 

RDKeysor

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I didn't weigh the aluminum sump recently installed on my car, but it was VERY heavy. I believe we had a person holding it in place when we installed it while the car was on a lift. No problem with the installation. I believe we used blue RT to attach the gasket to the pan and also put a bit on the block mating surface.
 

bob hughes

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Lin

You will not be pulling the end caps? so why do you need the felt plugs - or are you referring to the square cork sections to cover the recesses in the caps.

:cheers:

Bob
 
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Lin

Lin

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Hi Bob,
you are correct. I could just leave the old plugs, but I just thought I would replace them while I am in there.
Lin
 
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Lin

Lin

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Hi guys,
After some delay, I am ready to replace this gasket. Is there a stated or recommended torque value for the bolts to secure the sump to the block? Given that uses a cork gasket, I don’t want to go too tight and totally squash the seal, on the other hand, I don’t want it so loose that it will leak. Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
Lin
 

kozelding

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Hi guys,
After some delay, I am ready to replace this gasket. Is there a stated or recommended torque value for the bolts to secure the sump to the block? Given that uses a cork gasket, I don’t want to go too tight and totally squash the seal, on the other hand, I don’t want it so loose that it will leak. Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
Lin

Not tight at all - 6 ft/lbs I think?

I also remember reading advice to fully support the pan before starting to thread the bolts, to make sure you're not using the bolts to lift the pan weight.

FWIW, I used a small amount of red RTV on the pan side and grease on the engine side of the gasket, and (so far) no leaks.

I also followed the RTV instructions and let it cure 24 hours before letting it come in contact with oil.

EDIT: http://www.ntahc.org/techtips-12/ lists 5-8 ft/lbs
 

Bob_Spidell

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I've experimented with various sealants and other goops over the years and I've hit on a combo that works well on sump and valve cover gaskets. I use a bead of Permatex Silicone Adhesive Sealant to affix the gasket to the sump or cover (let cure for a few minutes):

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-811...hvlocphy=2840&hvtargid=pla-406644576175&psc=1

Then, I put a thin smear of this stuff on the top of the sump gasket, or bottom of the valve cover gasket:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7651469

... and mate the pieces up. The black stuff is a fairly strong adhesive (though not as strong as an epoxy). The blue Napa stuff allows a thin, sticky smear to be applied, as opposed to a more rubbery bead that you usually get with silicone RTV. The black adhesive keeps the gasket in place so the sump or valve cover can be removed, and the blue stuff lets go fairly easily--but creates a good seal against oil--and I can reuse gaskets almost indefinitely. I wouldn't use grease because grease, being oil with a thickener, is soluble in oil.
 

steveg

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If you use Permatex The Right Stuff, it can be returned to service immediately.

Tom Monaco of Tom's Toys suggests using internal star lock washers instead of split rings because they'll hold better at the 8 ft lbs. Getting the split rings tight requires IIRC 14 ft lbs - with a possibility of distorting the pan.
 

steveg

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I've experimented with various sealants and other goops over the years and I've hit on a combo that works well on sump and valve cover gaskets. I use a bead of Permatex Silicone Adhesive Sealant to affix the gasket to the sump or cover (let cure for a few minutes):

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-811...hvlocphy=2840&hvtargid=pla-406644576175&psc=1

Then, I put a thin smear of this stuff on the top of the sump gasket, or bottom of the valve cover gasket:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7651469

... and mate the pieces up. The black stuff is a fairly strong adhesive (though not as strong as an epoxy). The blue Napa stuff allows a thin, sticky smear to be applied, as opposed to a more rubbery bead that you usually get with silicone RTV. The black adhesive keeps the gasket in place so the sump or valve cover can be removed, and the blue stuff lets go fairly easily--but creates a good seal against oil--and I can reuse gaskets almost indefinitely. I wouldn't use grease because grease, being oil with a thickener, is soluble in oil.

Bob - surprised at this. Thought you were a big fan of Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket, which would be ideal for this, and guaranteed to not cause possible future problems. I'll be doing my sump gasket (new rubber one from Tom's Toys) in the next few days. Will use Hylomar universal blue between gasket and engine; Aviation Form-a-Gasket to glue gasket to sump.

See last line below:
screenshot.1729.jpg
 

red57

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I don't see the value in trying to re-use a pan gasket so I have always used Permatex 300 on both surfaces of the gasket along with a smear on the inner edge of the gasket so oil can't seep thru the cork - never had a leak. I do the same with the lifter gallery covers since they almost never need to be removed. The exception for me is the valve cover - in that case I use the Permatex 300 to bond the gasket to the cover and use nothing on the head side since it needs to come off regularly.

One time I had to drop the pan and didn't have a replacement gasket, I just pulled the pan off and allowed the gasket to let go wherever it wanted to (some areas stayed on the block and some areas stayed on the pan), then coated all surfaces and breaks in the gasket with Permatex and re-installed the pan, again with no leaks.

I have not had that kind of luck with any silicone type sealers - they all seem to be 'one and done' but Permatex 300 can be applied to oily surfaces and still seal and can be taken apart and re-assembled with no leaks.

I have not tried rubber or silicone gaskets so don't know what's best for those.

Dave
 

Bob_Spidell

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Yeah, I like the Aviation Form-A-Gasket, but for this application I like the adhesive qualities of the silicone adhesive/sealant stuff (I'm sure the F-A-G would work in as well). The TDS is news to me, but I'm not using it as gasketing material here, but only for the adhesive qualities. My mechanic used Right Stuff when he built my engine three years ago, then I immediately cracked my pan and had to remove and replace it; it was nigh on impossible (the pan might as well have been welded to the block). I ended up cutting through the Right Stuff with a serrated knife, which I broke off while sawing at the RS. That was three years ago, my elbow was sore--I thought maybe permanently--until just a few months ago. When I told my mechanic the story he said "Well, the pan wasn't meant to be removed." Totally agree on the internal star lock washers; my pan had all but one of the original-type washers on it--a kind of internal star that I couldn't find anywhere--and guess which one seeps a little?

There's a confusing array of RTV/silicone sealants/adhesives/gasket makers (this is the first TDS I've seen; I should study them). My observations are:

1) if it says 'adhesive' anywhere on the label, it's effectively a glue that seals
2) if it says 'gasket maker,' it can replace gaskets (though I don't know how big a gap you'd want to fill with goop)
3) if it doesn't say 'adhesive' or 'gasket maker' it's a goop that fills gaps in gaskets
4) Aviation Form-A-Gasket can be used almost anywhere; I used it exclusively on the paper gaskets and the critical casing<->brake ring<->rear casing gasketless joints on my OD and nothing leaks (except the actuating shaft O-rings, but that's a different saga)
 

steveg

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Bob - Good point about the Right Stuff - too permanent!

Re Aviation Form-a-gasket (AFAG) #3 slow dry, I wasn't happy with it as an adhesive on the valve cover gasket (cork). The gasket tended to squeeze out to one side. In the past, I successfully used weatherstrip adhesive to glue it to the valve cover, and hylomar between gasket and head.

Last week, installed a new gasket on my front timing cover. AFAG on mating surfaces of both paper gasket and timing cover flange, with the side toward the engine left dry. Let them skin over for a few minutes, then press in place by hand on the timing cover, using spare bolts to keep the gasket located. Let it dry overnight. Next morning it was located in place and the AFAG had turned into a gum, although the gasket could have been moved slightly if necessary. Hylomar applied to engine-side of paper gasket and bolted up. IMO this is a really good seal and that's what I'm going to use on the pan.

I used GaskaCinch to attach my tappet cover gaskets. It's a strong contact cement-type. The problem with this type is it's difficult to get the gasket perfectly located as the bond is instantaneous. The AFAG is easy to work with as you can always shift the gasket a little but it's not going to just fall off.
 

steveg

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What does one do for the little cross pieces (#5) for the front and rear bearing caps? Mine are leaking - my reason for replacing the sump gasket.

Do you use the stock "sticks", carefully trimmed, coated with silicone or just put a bead of silicone across the groove in the bearing cap?

screenshot.1730.jpg
 

Bob_Spidell

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My mechanic used Right Stuff (there and the cotton 'cigarette' gaskets on the rear main). He forced it in with a caulking gun; I think it's the best way to seal the seams.

I've always used AFAG #3; they have a couple SKUs, may be different sizes/containers.
 
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Lin

Lin

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Great question, Steve. I am wondering the same thing. I took my pan off yesterday (after market cast aluminum) and #5 crumbled into little pieces at the front.
Lin
 
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