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Thread: Boeing accidents

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  1. #21
    Great Pumpkin DrEntropy's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Popeye
    I am an aerospace engineer, but have no clue what specifically went wrong. Waiting for the full NSTB report.


    Aptly stated!
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    Yoda TOC's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by charlie74 View Post
    2 accidents in 5 months with 350-ish fatalities seems like a lot to me...
    perspective.

    Death Cruiser 10....how many died before they actually fixed the problem?
    Lockheed Electra.....how many before they even knew there was a problem?
    Comet....same as Electra.


    maybe.

    What we have is a plethora of talking heads and ex-spurts.

    And a www full of opinions.

    Oh, well. As said, now we sit back and wait.

    Based upon past colored results, if what I heard about the destination of the FDR and CVR, not holding my breath.

  3. #23
    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    "What we have is a plethora of talking heads and ex-spurts.

    And a www full of opinions."

    (I think you're also describing most online forums ...)

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    Yoda TOC's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by NutmegCT View Post
    "What we have is a plethora of talking heads and ex-spurts.

    And a www full of opinions."

    (I think you're also describing most online forums ...)

    carefully done to be broad enough in scope to not tread on toes too local.

  5. #25
    Yoda PAUL161's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    I think the system in question was designed to prevent such a situation, no telling what caused this to happen as of now, but seems like they are focusing on the MACS anti-stall system. As stated, very complicated, even for the experts. Hope they get this solved soon and get the 737s back in the air. Even when the problem is solved, I believe a lot of folks will refuse to fly in one for quite a while. It is a beautiful aircraft. Wonder who is the software designer?

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    Re: Boeing accidents

    I flew home in one Monday. I wasn’t the least bit concerned. I think it’s still safer than driving.
    &quot;Age considers; youth ventures.&quot; Rabindranth Tagore
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  7. #27
    Obi Wan
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    When the DC10 had it's cargo door problem a friend was flying back to England from China. He chose to take the indirect route with about 4 changes to avoid flying on the DC10.

    David

    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL161 View Post
    I think the system in question was designed to prevent such a situation, no telling what caused this to happen as of now, but seems like they are focusing on the MACS anti-stall system. As stated, very complicated, even for the experts. Hope they get this solved soon and get the 737s back in the air. Even when the problem is solved, I believe a lot of folks will refuse to fly in one for quite a while. It is a beautiful aircraft. Wonder who is the software designer?
    TR3A TS75524L

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    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Seems Boeing already has a fix in hand.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47583108
    Randall
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  9. #29
    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL161 View Post
    Wonder who is the software designer?
    Almost certainly a cast of thousands for the overall package; and likely a half dozen or more just for MCAS.

    Plus, patching old software is never the most glamorous role; and the best and brightest generally have first pick of which project they want to work on. So a patch like MCAS (and it certainly smells to me like a patch to cover up an unfortunate hardware feature) tends to not get the top talent. Until, of course, something like this happens.

    Disclaimer: I'm certainly no expert on flight control software. But after nearly 40 years of developing vehicle control (and related) software in various guises, I do have some idea of what goes into it. And I can't count how many times software has been asked to cover up mistakes made by hardware.

    It's also amazing how often the decision to ship product is made by management over objections from engineering. Then when it turns out to really not work, it's usually cast as engineering's fault.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/u...le-danger.html
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    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    From that BBC article: "Boeing began work on the upgrade after another 737 Max jet crashed in October."

    So Boeing recognized the problem long before the Ethiopian crash on Sunday.
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  11. #31
    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Well, still not "officially" certain that Sunday's crash was the same thing as the one last October. Or the same as very similar problems reported before that, by pilots who were savvy enough to turn off the automatic trim adjustment (and hence did not crash).
    https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/20...37-max/584791/
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  12. #32
    Obi Wan
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Would be interesting to know how many of the pilots that had turned the MCAS system off are older pilots with more hand flying experience being more accustomed to being in full control of the aircraft. Not just system management experience.

    David
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    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    My guess would be "none". Disabling safety systems for no other reason than " being in control" is a good way to ruin an otherwise lucrative career.

  14. #34
    Obi Wan
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    When I learned how to fly back in the 1960s and again in the 1980s, the instructors I had would never even mention the autopilot let alone let you use it. One day after I had my ticket for a couple of years, on a flight back from Nantucket, I switched it on. The plane immediately went into a spiral dive to the left. My hand moved at warp speed to shut it off, I corrected and the flight resumed. I never touched it again. Now a Cherokee is light years away from a 737 but flying is flying. From simulators, I know how difficult it is to hand fly a jet, but I say again - put a properly trained pilot back in the cockpit not a systems manager. For those who disagree - mainly tech nerds - I refer you to to the pages of yesterday's NY Times quoting professional pilot organizations saying exactly the same thing and using the exact same terms as I did. Automation is here to stay. I realize that. But to allow any system to go unchallenged is the height of folly. What if a bug was deliberately programmed into a system by a disgruntled engineer or sabotaged later? Such a bug would most likely be undetectable in the normal preflight check and runup.

  15. #35
    Great Pumpkin JPSmit's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    In other news, we recently had a conversation about car driver's licenses. In Ontario they have a graduated system so, you get your learners permit then your G1 - which you have to have for a year - various restrictions but the key being that you can never have any alcohol on your breath. Then the G or full license.

    My nephew recently had to do his G license - and in the (driving test) they are not allowed to use the backup cameras. Now this makes total sense to me except that increasingly cars have such poor rearward visibility that using your eyes is almost impossible. So Catch 22 of sorts.

    I remember when we weren't allowed to use calculators either (cause they were just a fad) then they had us use them because the formulas were complicated enough to not do from memory.

    Sigh
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    Obi Wan
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    I have either read somewhere or was told that the majority of pilots do all their aircraft type training on simulators and the first time they acutely get to handle the controls of the real thing there are paying passengers in the back as it is too expensive to let them fly around with an empty aircraft.
    Obviously the captain would not be in this position this would be the co-pilot.

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    Yoda TOC's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    I know someone (well) who has worked in Airliner Leasing businesses for years.

    Mentioned my thoughts on where the boxes were sent, and that elicited a response I had not heard.

    Apparently, leasing companies have figured out Airbus was behind the immediate grounding of competitor's 737MAX in Europe....but you will never see that in print.

    If they have their fingers in the decoding of the boxes.....well, who knows.

    Makes you think.

  18. #38
    Great Pumpkin DrEntropy's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by TOC
    Apparently, leasing companies have figured out Airbus was behind the immediate grounding of competitor's 737MAX in Europe....but you will never see that in print.


    When I heard the recorders were headed for France, the red flags went up in my pea brain.
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  19. #39
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    Much more complex than just the computer control. Here is a much more in depth explanation from a real 737 pilot on his youtube channel. Just be careful a dangerous rabbit hole to fall down lots of interesting material here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlinocVHpzk

    In very very short the design of the MAX design has larger engines, which forced moving the engine location, which changes thrust characteristics, which influences how the plane pitches,...which created the need for a new control system.. simple....

  20. #40
    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
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    Re: Boeing accidents

    We've referred to this before: The change in engine size, cowling, intake, placement on wing, external sensors - plus the (possibly?) undocumented changes in control software and (possibly?) poor or absent training in the changes.

    Over 300 people have died.
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