3000 bj8 Oil Pump

Hi All,

First classic and first post...

I have a BJ8 and the oil pressure is 60 cold idle and 20 at hot idle (winter around 1 degree). In the summer it was dropping to 15 (and sometimes closer to 10...

I changed the rocker shaft as it was spurting oil and also the pressure release valve. In addition changed the oil (to a classic car oil) and replaced the spin off filter.

Pressure seems to be perhaps 5 psi better however difficult to tell as it is winter.

I am wanting to therefore change the oil pump to see if this helps and am unsure whether it is worth paying for the Dennis's Welsh high output pump or just go for the standard from ahead4healeys, both in the UK.

The drivere handbook actually states that hot idle should be 20 however everything I find on the net seems to say that this is too low....

Any help for an anxious amateur would be appreciated.

James

Welcome to the Forum, James.

There are two types of oil pumps used in Big Healeys: a rotor type, used in earlier 3000s--and, I think, in the 100s--and a gear type, used in BJ8s and possibly BJ7s and others. Supposedly, the rotor type provided higher output at lower RPMs, but put greater load on the cam gear causing some wear and, possibly, failure. BMC switched to the gear type in the later 3000s to eliminate this problem, though it might have been a cost-saving issue as well. The gear type puts less strain on the cam gear, and less resistance--i.e. less power loss--at higher RPMs. That is why DWR recommends the 'high capacity' pump--which is the rotary type--for street cars and the other--which is the gear type--for high-RPM race cars. I bought a pump years ago for an earlier rebuild of my BJ8, and was surprised to learn it was the rotary type; I always assumed it was the gear type. I just bought DWR's HC pump for the rebuild I am currently performing.

My BJ8 read near-zero pressure at hot idle for years; obviously oil was being circulated or the engine would have seized early on. Eventually, I had the safety--coolant temp/oil pressure gauge--overhauled and calibrated and, Voila!, I now had 15-20PSI at hot idle. At overhaul, my engine showed no signs of wear that could be attributed to low oil pressure--in fact, the crank and con rods are still standard at almost 200K miles!--but there was wear on the cam lobes and lifters but that is a known problem due to low ZDDP in modern oils. So, your pressure readings sound perfectly normal to me; you don't mention how many miles on your engine but if it's in the tens of thousands some loss of pressure would not be unexpected. I would:

1) check your pressure against a known good, calibrated gauge
2) if the known good gauge reads higher than your safety gauge, either have your safety gauge overhauled and calibrated, or not, and drive your car
3) if the known good gauge reads lower than your safety gauge, drive your car

In other words, I don't think you need a new pump, unless you don't have anything else on your car that needs attention. Note this is one of the reasons manufacturers removed 'true' oil pressure gauges from modern cars: too many people don't know how to interpret oil pressure readings and were bringing perfectly good cars in for service because 'the oil pressure drops when I've driven 100 miles and I'm sitting in traffic on a 90degF day!' (the other reason was likely cost).

James I had the same issues when I had my first big Healey 18 months ago a 65 bj8 with similar oil pressure to yours, I replaced the rocker shaft and a couple of worn tappets this made a small improvement to oil pressure but a huge improvement to tappet noise. I then dropped the oil pan replaced the big end shells checking them with a plasigauge. Replaced the oil pump and left it at that for now, oil pressure improved significantly 20psi idle after a long run. I know a major engine rebuild is on the cards in the future but hoping to get another 10k out of her before that.

When did you last replace the oil pressure relief valve ? Put a couple of washers under the spring and see if it rises .
As long as you have a positive pressure at idle your fine , theres way too much paranoia about oil pressure on our old cars .

The oil pressure in my BJ8 engine after I had it completely rebuilt was 60 psi cold, just under 40 psi on the road after a thorough warmup, and in the summer here in the American south where daytime temperatures are usually in the 90s F, around 20 psi at idle. I've seen it drop closer to zero on occasion. I now have 80,000 miles on the engine rebuild and have the same pressures. I think yours are normal.
If your rocker shaft was spurting oil, it was appropriate to rebuild or replace the shaft assembly.

Hello James, welcome to the forum. As stated above there is way too much paranoia about oil pressure. Your oil pressure is not bad and if you want to get it a little better put a little bit higher weight multi grade oil in it. Especially a racing oil that can withstand the heat. I'm using 20w-50 Valvoline Racing Oil right now. As long as the engine doesn't have the wrong kind of noises, (rod knock, excessive valve clatter), etc then it'll go for a long time. Enjoy it, Cheers.

Hi to all,

Firstly, thank you so much to you all for taking the time to write, it is warming to know there is so much experience out there and such a willingness to help.

The oil I am using is Classic 40 by Comma, the oil release valve was replaced last summer and the engine has an un-verified 90,000miles on it. There has been some engine work done in the past (new pistons etc,), and do not think the car has been used much since this time.

From what I read I perhaps need to stop being so nervous about the pressure, many of you seem to have similar readings.
Actions to take:
- Check pressure using a known, accurate meter
- Perhaps switch to a different grade oil

Any other input welcome

Thanks once again for all your help and support.

James

Hello again James. Yes I think you can enjoy your engine as is for a long time but having said that I and I'm sure others on this forum would totally appreciate anyone's interest in ensuring that thier car is as best as it can be or as best as they want it to be. It all depends where your interest is. If you want to drive, drive, drive, I believe your engine will let you do that. If you want to bring it to a higher level i believe you will find the help you want on this forum. Have fun. Cheers.

James A said:

...The oil I am using is Classic 40 by Comma...

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Hoo boy, this will (re-)start a neverending discussion, but I don't think this is a good choice for oil. For one, it's non-detergent, and dispersants and detergents are useful in engines to prevent gunk buildup. This oil specifically says it should be changed at 600 miles; I've put that much on my car in less than 2 days' driving. And, I think, in a pretty cold place like Norway you'd want a good multi-grade oil for cold starts. Plus, the product doesn't state that it has at least the minimum amount of ZDDP; in the 'States, at least, only (some) 20W-50 oils claim to have this.

Ok, here goes The End of the neverending discussion. I AGREE WITH BOB!

Bob_Spidell said:

Hoo boy, this will (re-)start a neverending discussion, but I don't think this is a good choice for oil. For one, it's non-detergent, and dispersants and detergents are useful in engines to prevent gunk buildup. This oil specifically says it should be changed at 600 miles; I've put that much on my car in less than 2 days' driving. And, I think, in a pretty cold place like Norway you'd want a good multi-grade oil for cold starts. Plus, the product doesn't state that it has at least the minimum amount of ZDDP; in the 'States, at least, only (some) 20W-50 oils claim to have this.

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Hi Bob!

Thanks for the input on the oil, a fellow Healey enthusiast suggested it for me hence why I went with it.

Summers in Norway tend to be quite ok (circa 18-25 degree C), and late autumn, winter and spring are a no go due to the salt and ice on the roads.

What is ZDDP and what should I look for?
What grade oil and brand do you suggest?

This place in Norway has a reasonable selection: https://bilxtra.no/butikk/#!/tilbehor/olje-og-kjemi/motorolje

James

Hi James,

The oils available in the US are different than in Europe. Since I don't read Norwegian, I went to the UK site for Castrol. You should be safe with Castrol Classic XL 20W-50.

ZDDP info here, and elsewhere if you 'google' it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

Low or no ZDDP has been blamed for a rash of excessive cam wear and some outright failures. Our engines are of the 'flat tappet' variety, in which the tappets (aka lifters) ride directly on the cam lobes. Not surprisingly, this is a point of high pressure hence possible rapid wear. There's still argument as to whether the lack of ZDDP is directly responsible--but there is considerable anecdotal evidence--and most owners of this type of valve train opt to 'play it safe' and use either oils with adequate ZDDP or add an additive. For some reason--it doesn't make sense to me--some people claim we should only use the same type of oil that was available when our cars were built. This seems to me like me saying 'I was born in 1953, I should only use surgical techniques and medications available in that era.' Lubricant science has come a long way in 50+ years (as has medicine). FWIW, my BJ8 has almost 200K miles on modern oils.

I don't know what oils are available in Norway--Castrol 20W-50 should be fine--but Valvoline VR1 20W-50 is popular in the 'States. Thinner oils have had the ZDDP content reduced or eliminated, as it damages catalytic converters, which can cause excessive emissions.

Two items, if your oils use the same rating system as the US look for an oil rated "CJ4 SN" if that is unavailable most any oil rated for Diesel engines is OK, I use either Shell Rotella or Travelers.

On oil pressure, back in the day, my Dad had a BRAND NEW Alfa Gulia which idled at ZERO once warmed up. I currently have a '62 Corvette whose engine was rebuilt about 20000 miles ago. It too idles at near zero once well warmed up (at 750 RPM) if I rev it up to 1500 RPM it increases the pressure to 30-35.

Don't overthink your non-problematic oil pressure, it's OK as iss.

In EU you can get Mobil1 10-60 as I recall. That would be great.
See the previous threads on oils.

Oil again! That's great, I can get to promote my new favourite. Fully synthetic Mobil 1 10W-60. That will also help with cold starts in Norway.

DerekJ said:

Oil again! That's great, I can get to promote my new favourite. Fully synthetic Mobil 1 10W-60. That will also help with cold starts in Norway.

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Any idea what the ZDDP content is? Or do they use some other sort of high pressure and wear protection?

ps. Doesn't appear to be available in the 'States.

Bob Claffie said:

Two items, if your oils use the same rating system as the US look for an oil rated "CJ4 SN" if that is unavailable most any oil rated for Diesel engines is OK, I use either Shell Rotella or Travelers.

...

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Not all ZDDPs are the same. The ZDDP for diesel engines is different than the one for gasoline engines. And, no, the rating system is different in Europe.

Do you find this Mobil 1 oil makes any difference to oil pressures hot or cold ? And I notice it has anti leak additives do you find this effective.

Bob_Spidell said:

ZDDP info here, and elsewhere if you 'google' it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

Low or no ZDDP has been blamed for a rash of excessive cam wear and some outright failures. Our engines are of the 'flat tappet' variety, in which the tappets (aka lifters) ride directly on the cam lobes. Not surprisingly, this is a point of high pressure hence possible rapid wear. There's still argument as to whether the lack of ZDDP is directly responsible--but there is considerable anecdotal evidence--and most owners of this type of valve train opt to 'play it safe' and use either oils with adequate ZDDP or add an additive. For some reason--it doesn't make sense to me--some people claim we should only use the same type of oil that was available when our cars were built. This seems to me like me saying 'I was born in 1953, I should only use surgical techniques and medications available in that era.' Lubricant science has come a long way in 50+ years (as has medicine). FWIW, my BJ8 has almost 200K miles on modern oils.

I don't know what oils are available in Norway--Castrol 20W-50 should be fine--but Valvoline VR1 20W-50 is popular in the 'States. Thinner oils have had the ZDDP content reduced or eliminated, as it damages catalytic converters, which can cause excessive emissions.

Click to expand...

Hi and thanks for the reply.

The Valvoline vr1 is available here (20W-50) but is available in mineral format and none. Which is right?

Thanks again!

James