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CJD
02-02-2014, 08:06 PM
For the last restoration I was able to avoid this issue, but not so this time. I am not satisfied with the condition of my instrument faces. The black has differring shades, and the red rpm limit line is tan from sun exposure. The parts car has similar issues, but chiefly there are differences between the markings on a TR2 and a TR3 markings. So here goes:

1) Does anybody know of a source for new or reconditioned instrument faces? I know Nisonger "says" they have them, but will not sell without using their gage rebuild service...like $2 grand. I farm nothing out but machine work, so I cannot bring myself to farm this out.

2) Does anyone know how the original faces were painted? It is obvious the black went on first. The white looks like silk screen...however I have never seen a silk screen that works on a curved surface. I have a laser cutter, so I can cut silk screen or vinyl maskings...but some of the detail is even too small for any silk screen or masking I have ever seen. Their technique in those days baffles me, so anybody have insight how it was done?

3) Anybody have an idea of what type paint these instrument faces were painted with? Black is easy, since I can etch the surface and bond it permanently. The white has to be very high density to cover over black with, presumably, one pass. The red on the tack looks substandard on the originals, so I'm not worried about that.

Learning to paint instrument faces has been a goal of mine since my first restoration. With the laser I can cut masks accurate within .005", which is the width of the laser beam. But cutting any mask on a curved surface is shady at best. I can cut the mask from vinyl, and then stretch over the curves, but that will result in a distortion of the markings. They had to use a trick. There has to be a way to duplicate it...and once we do, instrument restoration will be a cinch!

So, please, I welcome any ideas...!

Tr3aguy
02-02-2014, 08:25 PM
Have you contacted https://westvalleyinstruments.com/ to see if they will just do the faces......

Gliderman8
02-02-2014, 09:18 PM
Irregular and curved surfaces are generally pad printed. Pad printing uses a etched plate for the image, and a curved foam pad to do the transfer.
Just my guess how the dial face might be printed.

Gliderman8
02-02-2014, 09:28 PM
Some basic info here about pad printing...


https://youtu.be/H7QeBtKJFYA

CJD
02-02-2014, 09:48 PM
Have you contacted https://westvalleyinstruments.com/ to see if they will just do the faces......

They're on my list for tomorrow...thanks!

CJD
02-02-2014, 09:53 PM
Pad printing...interesting! It appears they are silkcreening the pad and then transferring to the curved surface. It sounds doable...but would take some really decent white paint to cover black with one press.

Gliderman8
02-02-2014, 09:58 PM
Pad printing...interesting! It appears they are silkcreening the pad and then transferring to the curved surface. It sounds doable...but would take some really decent white paint to cover black with one press.
No, not screening the pad.... the pad get the image from an etched plate.

dklawson
02-03-2014, 08:59 AM
I have made a few custom gauges using a CAD package to lay out the gauge face, then laser printed the artwork onto decal paper. The results are acceptable but not as crisp and vibrant as the original factory printing. You are also limited in that color decals that most of us can make will be based on inkjet printing which will fade. Alps makes some form of high-end color printer that is better for this sort of work but I don't know anyone who has one.

BobbyD
02-03-2014, 09:46 AM
I had my gauges done by West Valley last summer... approximately $80/gauge but I was having them all converted to Magnolia. He uses an "artist" who does silk screening. Call and ask for Morris. He'll explain the process but may not share the details.

31472

CJD
02-03-2014, 11:09 AM
The laser can cut white vinyl to stick on the face. It would look perfect, but it would have the small ridge....003" where the vinyl sticks on. I think that would be an option about equivelant to the decals. The vinyl is "guaranteed" for 20 years. I would like to use paint if I can, just to be as original.

Still waiting for West Valley to open. $500 for new faces is a hefty tag...but yours look beautiful, Bob!


Edit:

Just talked to MOMA instruments in Albequerque. They prefer the total restoration of the instruments for about $1400, but will do the faces for $6-700. They said they use a silk screen...but also that some of the small part number lettering will be omitted. Hmmm. 6-8 month turn around.

Nisonger says rebuild only, which is $275 for the large 2 and $200-210 for the small 4. Plus any parts the gages need. They say the tiny part numbers etc. will be retained. It seems silk screen IS the method used for the faces. 8 - 10 week turn around. It goes a bit against my grain to pay for a complete instrument rebuild, when all I need is a face. The charges above include $100 for each face (not sold separately).

I have a message in to W Valley.

George_H
02-03-2014, 01:22 PM
Since you have access to a laser, What about cutting vinyl stencils. Its the same as making the numbers, just use the "other half" as a stencil, Then paint the color of your choice. That would be way easier than making a silkscreen setup for each one. also holding the face of the gauge while screening is a challenge. then if miultple colors are needed the challenge of alignment would be large. My 2cents for the day. George (PS I silkscreen on glass everyday, I don't think I would try it on a gauge)

CJD
02-03-2014, 02:42 PM
Since you have access to a laser, What about cutting vinyl stencils. Its the same as making the numbers, just use the "other half" as a stencil, Then paint the color of your choice. That would be way easier than making a silkscreen setup for each one. also holding the face of the gauge while screening is a challenge. then if miultple colors are needed the challenge of alignment would be large. My 2cents for the day. George (PS I silkscreen on glass everyday, I don't think I would try it on a gauge)

You hit on my current first choice, George. The stencil, made of laser cut vinyl will be a cinch. The trouble is the curvature of the metal face. It is flat in the center, and then has a concave dish around the outside. It is enough of a dish that the vinyl will stretch...but will distort the lettering as it gets stretched, assuming I cut the stencil before stretching it over the face.

Another option is to fully cover the face with vinyl, then cut the stencil in place. The down side of that is the focal point of the laser is rather sensitive to distance. The 3/8" depth of the dish will make a difference, so may cause a problem. But, it may not.

Luckily I have the gages from Marv's parts car to play with. Right now I am gathering options and techniques...then I'll move to the experimentation. Pictures will follow once I get going!

Just heard from West Valley:

Speedo $270
Tach $260
Oil $160
Amm $140
Temp $180
fuel $180

Face painting alone is $450-500

Again, silkscreen is the method they use. There will be an extra charge for extra detail on the face...like periods after the M.P.H., and the like.

George_H
02-04-2014, 12:32 AM
I'm not sure what you mean about "stretching" the vinyl. The vinyl I am thinking about would not stretch. Use the stuff they make signs out of. If the shape is too concave, cut some slits into it to get it to lay smooth on the face. Also cutting the vinyl in place would etch the face? We also use a laser and yes 3/8 would give you some focusing problems. I would love to know how they silkscreen that kind of shape.

CJD
02-04-2014, 01:38 PM
Elliot, spent a lot of time studying pad printing. I see what you are saying. The pad is loaded from an etched steel plate. Ink is squeegeed into the etch. And the pad picks up the ink. Normally the steel plate is optically etched using a many step process. The steel is needed for low wear when printing thousands of parts.

This has potential! I will only be doing a couple, so I can skip the steel plate and directly etch a plastic plate using the laser. The difficult part will be lining the instrument face up to the pad. I see on utube that it takes the pros a long time, and several bad presses, to get it lined up. I have some more thinking to do...

George, the vinyl I would use is stretchy, adhesive backed, sign vinyl. The laser can be turned down to go through the vinyl, but not completely through the underlying paint. It will etch the black paint a bit, but the following paint coat should fill it in.

Gliderman8
02-04-2014, 02:47 PM
John-
Trying to get "location" of the pad without the proper equipment is just a shot in the dark.... I only brought up pad printing as a possible method of printing if you have the equipment to do it.

CJD
02-04-2014, 08:24 PM
Hey Elliot. I have a decent drill press with a precision 3 axis vise. There is no way I'd try a thousand faces...but 6 one offs? I think the technicals can be worked out. I'm studying the pads right now. Of course, this is still in the brainstorming phase...so I am far from putting ink to instruments.

I am still curious how the gage pros are using "screen" printing on a concave surface. I have not found any info as to how that is even possible. Convex surface...looks easy. But inside a cup, not so much.

CJD
02-07-2014, 05:55 PM
Alright, here's where I am so far. These are the faces I am working with:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01285.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01285.jpg.html)

The one on the left is the TR2 face, and the right is the donor. If you look closely, you can see the black background has turned chalky on both faces. The red on the TR2 is no longer red. The plan is to strip the right gage and make it a new version of the left gage. After studying the technics available for more than a week...I will opt for the laser-cut mask. I will cover the gage face with a vinyl covering, and then laser cut the parts that will be white. I decided that the silkscreen method is 1000 years old, and it would be a major step backward to get up to speed on it.

Here is a screen pic of the Tach after 2 days mapping it on autocad. It looks simple, but it is actually a whole lotta work! Each mark was mapped with a protractor and then built in the computer. The original face looks very precise...but I learned it is not. Silkscreen is a "that's about right" kind of printing. The laser puts the marks exactly where you want them. I have had to "dumb down" the CAD drawing so as not to look better than the original printing.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01286.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01286.jpg.html)

Now I'm into the paint. Acryilic, enamal, laquer. The studying goes on...

DNK
02-07-2014, 06:00 PM
OK, now you have me interested

CJD
02-07-2014, 08:12 PM
I'm pretty lost with the paint options...any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

First, I have to paint the base color satin black, this has to be a durable paint for 2 reasons...I don't want it to lift or peal while masking, then and I need longevity in sunlight. My first choice is PPG DP90L satin urethane primer. My only worry there is bonding with the white paint that will go over it. Option 2 is enamel. Good stuff, but not great in sunlight. Finally, acrylic. My only experience with acrylic is poster paint...so I don't know much. It is now the most produced paint, though.

Then, I have to add the white over the base color. It has to be flat, with exceptional coverage over black. There are special flourescent whites. Does anyone have experience with these? Then there is just, white. I know the fluorescents are used to touch up the needles, but are they necessary for the face markings? Fluorescents are almost solely sold as acrylics. Plain white is available in any type.

dklawson
02-07-2014, 09:04 PM
John, did you find a font that worked or did you create the numbers in ACad? That Jaeger text looks GREAT!

The last time I worked on matching the fonts I gave up using commercial typefaces. I made careful photographs of each number which I then put in my CAD package as a background. I constructed lines on top of the photograph to outline each number then solid filled (hatched) the interior. Each number was then made into a block so I could manipulate them.

Regardless, I feel your pain. Laying out a gauge face is an awful lot of work. The nice thing is that with today's software and a quality inkjet or laser printer you can get nearly perfect 1:1 printouts to examine how your artwork will look on the actual gauge face.

Do keep us posted on your progress.

CJD
02-07-2014, 09:40 PM
It's about as you describe, Doug. I went through every font I had, and none were right, so it was a matter of building each letter and number, one line at a time. When I said I had to "dumb down" the program...I actually had to add radii to every edge to mimick the way the screened ink flowed on the original. The more you build, the easier it gets, as you can then use the previous work as a starting point and just modify. The only font I did use is the Jaeger. It is a Times Roman for the letters, but I had to build the lamp with the loops at the ends to fit it. The laser has a .005" width, so some of the characters may have to be narrowed to account for the width of the "knife". I tried to adjust for kerf, but sometimes it's just a matter of try and see. Tomorrow will be test day.

dklawson
02-07-2014, 10:48 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the first try.

CJD
02-09-2014, 12:01 AM
The Rover lost a fuel pump while I was out shopping for flourescent white paint. Spent the whole day working on that...maybe tomorrow on the test. No luck with flourescent paint either...

CJD
02-09-2014, 11:14 AM
Here is the first cut:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01288.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01288.jpg.html)

This is blue vinyl on a wood background. Most of it is good...it will need some size adjustments. I cannot see how the small lettering is working, though. With the fine detail the underlying wood charred some, so I can't quite tell if the detail is there or not. I need a better backing and a higher power magnifying glass...

I am toying with the thought of painting the large lettering, and decalling the fine lettering. Anyway, the testing goes on.

It's looking like I'll have to test paints too. Nobody has any experience with paint types out there?

dklawson
02-09-2014, 01:42 PM
I think it is a great start! I printed countless drafts of my artwork before committing to printing the decal. I anticipate you will find the same.

I don't remember the seller's name but I do remember there was a guy on eBay selling different fluorescent gauge paints (red, orange, and white). I have used fluorescent acrylic paints from AC Moore to touch up gauge needles but I have never given any thought at all to directly painting with it on the gauge face.

CJD
02-10-2014, 12:43 PM
Finally made the first real trial from mask to paint. I am pretty excited, as it came out the first time. Here is what I've got:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01325.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01325.jpg.html)

Now, the tearing is the fact that I was using a paper backplate for the trial, and the mask is not a real mask, but high-tack vinyl sign material, so the mask ripped the backing. That is fixable, by changing to a low tack mask. But, here is what I am really excited about:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01326.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01326.jpg.html)

Look at the fine detail in the lettering...first try! I now know enough to say this will work, so I will start over to pick up the rest of you guys left out. What I plan to do is post the complete restoration of the gages, start to finish.

CJD
02-10-2014, 12:50 PM
https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01296.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01296.jpg.html)


This is the typical state of a basket case gage. Dirty and ugly.

For starters. The glass face has to come off the gages. The bezel has tabs, so the bezel need to rotate so the tabs line up with the cut-outs in the housing. Here is how it looks on the smaller gages:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01312.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01312.jpg.html)

And this is the large speedo and tach:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01297.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01297.jpg.html)

You will notice a small drift punch on the table. The bezels are frequently glued with dirt and grime, so a gentle tap in the same direction around the bezel will get it started. Once loosened, the bezel can be rotated by hand and pops off. The glass may fall out, or have to be encouraged gently.

CJD
02-10-2014, 12:54 PM
https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01305.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01305.jpg.html)


The faces on the small gages just rest on the housing rim. By slightly bending the needle up, they slide right out.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01306.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01306.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01315.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01315.jpg.html)

Now you have a good look at the face. I use a very soft paint brush to dust the face. The light for the small gages is not internal, but comes through slots in the housing from bulbs mounted on the instrument panel. The problem with the "slot" method of letting light in is that dust also gets in, so the gages are normally full of dirt. After brushing the dirt, you can see what you are dealing with. This face is chalky and faded.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01308.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01308.jpg.html)


Here is the inside of either the temp or oil pressure gages. All it is is a coiled brass bellows. When pressure is applied, it tried to unwrap. This motion is transferred to the needle. Simple. The ammeter and fuel gage are both electric. No need to mess with any of the internals...yet.


https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01314.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01314.jpg.html)

So here are the faces of the small gages.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01319.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01319.jpg.html)

I do not have an extra ammeter, as the donor car had an aftermarket. Once I perfect my face restoration technique on the "extra" gages, I will tackle the valuable ammeter (at least to me it is).

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01319.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01319.jpg.html)

CJD
02-10-2014, 01:17 PM
At this point, you have a good view of the faces, and have cleaned them with a soft brush. If you are lucky, they will be good and re-usable as-is. You can skip ahead to where I rebuild them and calibrate. If you are like me, and not so lucky, the following many posts will be about restoring the faces, so I can get to the rebuilding and calibrating. So, here goes the face resto...

The tach and speedo are built under similar principals. A magnet spins, which imparts a force on an aluminum spinner. The needle is attached to the spinner, and a small spring brings the needle back to zero. The speedo is complicated by the addition of the odometer.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01320.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01320.jpg.html)


2 screws remove the assemblies from the housing. Remove the needle by holding the aluminum disc in the rear as you gently twist the needle away from the "0" and pull. Do not force...it comes off easily if you are doing it right. Now remove the face by removing 2 small jewelers screws. Here is what I had on the speedo, showing the small light for the high beam:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01300.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01300.jpg.html)

The light comes out by gently punching the back while supporting the front:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01300.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01300.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01302.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01302.jpg.html)

Here is the back of a typcial gage. Note that there is a bit of overspray around the edges. This tells me that the factory painted the white first, and then just flipped it over and sprayed the black on the front, with little or no masking.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01289.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01289.jpg.html)


I photo's the faces in very fine detail. It will be the last time I get a chance to see them as...here is the sanded tach face:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01303.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01303.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01304.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01304.jpg.html)

There is no turning back now! My only fear in repaintinf is that the mask will pull up the base paint. I made sure to get a very rough surface to bond the paint to, to at least give it a fighting chance of staying on.

CJD
02-10-2014, 01:21 PM
I have so many pics the forum is not letting me edit...so I know that was the speedo face!?!

Here is the way the housing came to me:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01321.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01321.jpg.html)

Notice how yellowed the paint is. The white is used to reflect the bulb light to the face. The whiter it is, the brighter the face. Here I have beed blasted the whole housing, using the cheapo Norther Tool $100 blaster with $29 in beads.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01322.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01322.jpg.html)

A pair of scissors and scrap cardboard make a nice little mask disc to fit in the bottom:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01323.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01323.jpg.html)

And now the housings are repainted and ready to set aside for the rebuild.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01324.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01324.jpg.html)

glemon
02-10-2014, 09:21 PM
I too consider myself a do it yourselfer, and tend to do most everything myself but machine work, for which I regrettably don't have the tools, but I don't think I am nearly ambitious or talented enough to try what you are doing, very impressive, can't wait to see the final results.

My solution to gauges I am not happy with cosmetically (that need more than simple clean up) has always been the e-bay trade in program, buy one with the good parts you need on e-bay, use the good one or swap out the best parts to make one good one, and sell what is left on ebay for parts or restoration.

Look forward to seeing the final results.

PatGalvin
02-10-2014, 09:35 PM
Wow John

Great thread. I really appreciate all the photos and detail. Thanks for developing this and sharing with all of us.

Pat

George_H
02-11-2014, 12:09 AM
Looks Fantastic. I was thinking about paint, What about auto pinstriping paint? It should be dense enough to cover.

HerronScott
02-11-2014, 07:49 AM
So what paints did you settle on (for the interior too)?

Scott

CJD
02-11-2014, 09:27 PM
I settled on Krylon...although I am not all that happy with it. The temps have been way to cold to pull out the expensive epoxy paints, and the Krylon was easily available at Hobby Lobby. I also could get all the colors in the same brand...so compatibility will not be an issue. If I mess these blanks up, I will re-spray them with PPG epoxy primer. I'll also have to look into the pin striping paint. Here are the blank plates, with Krylon front and back:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01331.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01331.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01332.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01332.jpg.html)

This is the finished housing...again with Krylon

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01333.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01333.jpg.html)

And finally, these are the reflector rings. They are black in the front, and white on the back. Their purpose to both to reflect the light back towards the gage face, and also to prevent the light from shining in your eyes.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01330.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01330.jpg.html)

Now I am back to the face itself. This is bogging me down a bit. To experiment, I took a metal pizza sheet and painted it exactly as I did the gage faces. The good news, I have had absolutely no problem with the masking pulling up the paint. The bad news it that I am having trouble getting the fine detail I did with the paper backings

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01327.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01327.jpg.html)

So this is my best to date:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01335.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01335.jpg.html)

I have about 2 weeks of real work ahead, so the faces will be on hold. But, I will pick up the thread soon.

Cheers!

CJD
02-11-2014, 09:33 PM
I was checking that final post before I took off. I apologize for the poor clarity...but I found myself sitting here staring at it playing "where's Waldo" with all the markings. It's kinda fun trying to pick out the differences. Feel free to let me know what you guys can find, as it is all adjustable until the final spray! For example, I see the "5" is not quite right...but the fun is trying to judge how it is not right.

CJD
02-17-2014, 03:10 PM
Still away from home, but had some time to draft the speedo. Here's how it looks as a drawing file:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/SpeedoFace-Model.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/SpeedoFace-Model.jpg.html)

Passing through home, and looking at Pat's pics on the chrome thread, I realized I was getting too critical. Most of the tiny lettering is hidden behind the needle hub and I need a magnifying glass to see the differences. Next weekend I should be ready to print the large gage faces. Weather is supposed to be nice for a change

dklawson
02-17-2014, 09:09 PM
I look forward to seeing the next set of pictures.

CJD
02-21-2014, 01:03 PM
Here is the first little gage drawing.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/FuelGageFace-Model.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/FuelGageFace-Model.jpg.html)

I feel like I've been gone at work for 2 weeks...can't wait to get back to work on the instruments. I goofed the first set of small face plates by bead blasting the paint off. The blasting warped the thin brass, so they "oil canned". I thought I was able to relax the stress by heating and cooling...and it looked like I did. But after painting the small waves were apparent. So lesson learned...do not blast the paint of the faces!! I will have to use the TR2 faces, and this time I plan to chemically strip the paint, then lightly rough with 600 grit.

Tr3aguy
02-21-2014, 01:22 PM
Great thread John.....I am sure you will knock it out!

JP

CJD
02-23-2014, 10:38 AM
Thanks, JP...I hope this thread pops to multi page soon...real pain scrolling all the way down!

I was ready to paint this weekend, but I am having second thoughts on my paint selection for the markings. The weather was good enough to excercise the TR3 yesterday, so I had chance to get a very close look at decent instruments in the sunlight. The TR3 has a very beautiful paint for the markings that appears pearlescent in the sunlight. I am certain that I would be the only one able to notice the difference from the bright Krylon white...but it bugs me that it would not be perfect.

I have to Google paint some more...or learn to let go of my OCD tendency!?

Later edit...

I give up. If there is a pearlescent white out there, I am unable to track it down. Bright white it will be. I will be painting the tach face as soon as I finish the windscreen stanchions to get my table cleared...

sp53
02-23-2014, 12:27 PM
Wow John how could I add anything? “To boldly go where noman has gone before.” Anyways I rebuilt my gauges, but never consideredrepainting the faces plus I left the amp gauge sealed up because I could not getthe glass face off. The women from Moma said she would silk screen the facesfor me, but also suggested I take a very soft dry paint brush and wipe the dustand dirt off plus I think they sold the company since I last talked to her. I thinkit was her and her son who did the work. One thing I did learn the hard way wasthat the old grease on the odometer becomes like tar and will tear itself up ifleft on. Looks great John keep it up

CJD
02-24-2014, 07:34 PM
First try on the actual face...went some good and some bad. I will have to sand it down and retry later. The main issue is the base paint was laid down 2 weeks ago, so the marking paint did not bond as well as it did on the trial pizza pan. The pizza pan was all sprayed within 3 days, so I cannot scrape the markings off. The base was still soft enough to allow a bond. On the face, the base paint hardened to much, so the bond is not so good. The result is close, but no cigar.

Here is a photo album of the process:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01344.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01344.jpg.html)
This is the face wrapped in blue vinyl mask


https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01347.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01347.jpg.html)

The laser at work.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01348.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01348.jpg.html)

This is the finished cut. The next step was to carefully peel the rev limit mark to spray it. Then the rev limit line was masked and the rest of the markings were opened with a #11 exacto blade to ready for the white.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01349.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01349.jpg.html)

I know you are probably thinking it looks the same...but without the bad focus there are small rough edges from the marking paint lifting with the vinyl removal. The solution...

I have to base and mark all in one weekend. No problem...it'll get there...

dklawson
02-24-2014, 09:46 PM
Fantastic !!!

Tr3aguy
02-25-2014, 07:54 AM
How much to do mine when i get to that point......I think I know your address?? Seriously it looks great to me.....FYI by fall I should have a little more garage space.....gainfully employed again:)

CJD
02-25-2014, 11:05 AM
Thanks, Doug. JP, I'd be happy to do yours once I get the magic formulae going. Glad to hear about the new job...although I was hoping we'd get you down here! Same location, or are you moving again?

Tr3aguy
02-25-2014, 03:21 PM
Staying in the area...hence the additional work to the house. First the basement buildout then a garage addition:)

DNK
02-25-2014, 04:43 PM
Staying in the area...hence the additional work to the house. First the basement buildout then a garage addition:)
Where in the Dulles area are you?

Tr3aguy
02-25-2014, 11:18 PM
Ashburn......ten minutes from the Airport......coming for a visit Don? You should come up to the Britain on the Green car show in April.

DNK
02-26-2014, 11:22 AM
Bro lives in Aldie.
There frequently
Bought my Lotus Cortina in the Vienna area in 76

Tr3aguy
02-26-2014, 08:02 PM
Next Time you are up this way.....give me a heads up....Beverage somewhere!

CJD
03-17-2014, 10:40 AM
Well, after 2 weeks down with a nasty variety of the flu, I'm back to work. I have completed the Tach. Everything was moving ahead well, till I had a set back in the calibration phase...

To calibrate the mechanical tach/speedo, you have to adjust the amount of magnetism there is in the spinning internal steel wheel. To do that, I bought a very strong magnet. Let me rephrase that...a VERY STRONG MAGNET!! I went online and ordered the strongest rare earth magnet I could get for $30, including shipping. Here is what came in the package:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01376.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01376.jpg.html)

If you look closely, you will see that there is about 12 inches of packaging bubble wrap, with the new magnet in the center. Even with this much packing, the magnet still was able to pick up all the steel screws I had out on the work table. This is no ordinary magnet!! This should have been an omen...I'm slow to catch on, though. Here is the magnet unwrapped:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01377.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01377.jpg.html)

It is 1" x 2" x 2". The pulling power is listed as 85 pounds...but I think that was a conservative measurement. I will get into the calibration later, but the bottom line is I got the magnet too close to my new instrument face...and yep...it crashed into the fresh face. It smashed the face, my fingers, the flimsy needle, and worst of all, it broke the needle stop off.

Bummer!

The face is steel, and the needle stop is a brass pin. Mine broke off flat with the face. I had to start over, from less than scratch. Here is the pin drill I used to remove the stub of the old pin:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01401.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01401.jpg.html)

Of course, I had to remove the paint around the hole, and used some spring steel for the new peg:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01402.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01402.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01404.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01404.jpg.html)

Then I silver soldered the new peg to the face plate. After a quick attempt to sand the face smooth...it was obvious I had to blast it and start from scratch. Did I mention...Bummer?

Tr3aguy
03-17-2014, 10:50 AM
Trials and well you know the rest......so now you move on...

CJD
03-17-2014, 10:53 AM
So, here is a quick pictorial of how to reface an instrument. First, the sand blasting down to bare metal. I tried several other metal prepping, but it became clear that the only way to ensure the paint would not peal is to use sand. The resulting surface is very rough, so the paint will never peal. Here is the new peg after silver soldering:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01405.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01405.jpg.html)

After blasting the old face and back, I primed with PPG DPL90 epoxy primer. Once the primer hardened, I sanded with 220 grit paper and top coated with Krylon semi-gloss. Then the masking, laser cutting...and 24 hours from the "incident" with the magnet, I was back to calibrating:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01406.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01406.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01407.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01407.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01408.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01408.jpg.html)


https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01409.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01409.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01410.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01410.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01411.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01411.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01415.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01415.jpg.html)

CJD
03-17-2014, 11:04 AM
Now, the face is done, so I am finally back to the mechanicals. For those that follow, always start with the tach. The mechanicals are identical to the speedo, but you don't have the added complication of the odometers to get in the way. The tach is a great warm-up for the speedo. Dissassembly is pretty easy, and is the opposite of the following pics of the reassembly. The reason you HAVE to dissassemble the unit is that the old grease turns to glue after about 10 years. This old sludge is what strips the odometer gears...so always take everything apart and clean the old grease off.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01360.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01360.jpg.html)

The first step in reassembly is putting the magnetic spinner back in the housing. Here are those 2 parts:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01361.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01361.jpg.html)

Trial fit the two parts, using fresh grease. Make sure the spinner turns freely, with absolutely no binding:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01362.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01362.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01363.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01363.jpg.html)

Now, remove the spinner, and slip the eccentric lock retainer onto the spinner shaft. Then re-install the spinner and retainer.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01458.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01458.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01364.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01364.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01365.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01365.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01366.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01366.jpg.html)

Do not over tighten any of these tiny screws.

CJD
03-17-2014, 11:22 AM
Now the dial housing goes on. This is a pic of the clock spring, which is extremely fragile. If it is broken, you need a new assembly. I never give up, but this is one part I would personally make no attempt to repair. While the dial housing is off, even lifting the assembly without supporting the aluminum disc will irrepairably stretch the clock spring. Do not attempt any cleaning stronger than dusting with a soft paint brush...it's just not worth the risk.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01367.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01367.jpg.html)

This is the orientation that the dial housing goes onto the main frame assembly:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01368.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01368.jpg.html)

It is best to either not lubricate, or use a lubricant that you know will not turn gummy over time. I used LPS #1, and then gently air blew the excess off:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01369.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01369.jpg.html)

This is the housing back on the frame. There is a needle on the back of the housing dial that fits inside a tiny, tiny brass bearing within the spinner. Make sure this pin is not bent, and that it slips gently into the spinner. Four tiny screws lock it down...again, no muscle on these screws:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01370.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01370.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01371.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01371.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01372.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01372.jpg.html)

Once in place, there is an adjustment screw on top of the housing. This screw adjusts the amount of play in the needle bearings. You want to adjust it so you can still feel end play, but only just. Better to have it too loose than too tight!!!

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01373.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01373.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01374.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01374.jpg.html)

And...the face and needle go on. I have it set in the case, but do not mount in the case if you plan to do a calibration. And that is the point of this excercise anyway!

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01384.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01384.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01388.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01388.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01389.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01389.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01390.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01390.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01391.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01391.jpg.html)

Notice that I first set the needle so it aligns with the little dot on the face. This will get you close to the idle calibration. I then gently popped the needle over the stop, and pressed it gently down onto the needle shaft. Do not press firmly yet...you will have to adjust it later.

Of note: here is the paint that is sold online to refresh the needle reflectivity. I tested it alongside the Krylon flat white spray paint, and I cannot tell a significant difference. I went with the Krylon, even though I had the special paint...plus, brushing this paint sucks. Spraying is always more uniform.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01387.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01387.jpg.html)

I am now ready to calibrate. I have to take the wife to lunch....will pick up later today.

dklawson
03-17-2014, 12:27 PM
Great work on the gauge faces and I am very sorry about the damage from the killer magnet. Those big magnets are dangerously strong. It's all too easy to get your finger stuck between one and someplace you wish it wasn't. I've gotten a couple of blood blisters from those things.

For the future reference of those reading this thread, Google for the 27 page PDF document "Repairing Jaeger and Smiths Speedometers" by Anthony Rhodes. It is a must-read reference to have at hand whenever working on speedometers and tachs.

John, there is an alternative to trying to re-magnetize the entire tachometer/speedometer. If the gauge reads too high (gernally unlikely) then you can gently pry the thin magnetic arms away from the aluminum drag cup. The further away the arms are from the cup the less induction there is to move the cup and needle forward. If the gauge reads low, you can add tiny (tiny, tiny, tiny) rare earth magnets to the arms. I have a couple of different tiny sizes I ordered off eBay that I use for calibration. Generally one or two of those placed strategically will increase the coupling and drive the needle further around the face. Once they are in place I put a drop of Krazy-Glue over them just to make sure they don't move.

I use a variable speed DC motor driven hobby lathe to spin tachs and speedometers at controlled speeds for calibration. Without some form of stable motor it is hard to know if you have the calibration close to right.

CJD
03-17-2014, 02:28 PM
You read my mind, Doug! Anthony Rhodes came up with this neat write up on speedos...

https://www.szott.com/lotusinfo/Smith-jaeger_speedo_repair.pdf

He has an engineering background, and really gets into the numbers and gear ratios. BUT!! Ignore his entire discussion on calibration!! He truely misses the boat on that area. Once I show you guys how easy it is to calibrate without gluing magnets or bending anything, you will wonder why we ever put up with out of spec instruments.

Tr3aguy
03-17-2014, 03:25 PM
Wow.....that is looking very nice....still following along.

CJD
03-17-2014, 05:21 PM
Thanks, JP...alright, got the honey-doos taken care of. Now we are ready for calibration. I am going to to go into a bit of theory, so you guys know what we are trying to do with the calibration, and why. Then I'll get into the details of "how" to do it.

If you read the article that Doug recommended above, you get a feel for how the tach works. A magnet spins through a flexible drive. The aluminum disc is influenced by the magnetic field, which imparts a force. This force winds the clock spring directly proportional to the speed of the spinning magnet, to which the tach needle is connected. Very simple.

There are only 2 things that affect the force imparted to the disc...those are the strength of the magnet, and the speed it is spinning. We want to know the speed, so we have to work on the strength of the magnet to calibrate the instrument. It is absolutely wonderful how easy the strength of the magnet can be changed. All you need to strengthen the magnet in the tach is another, stronger magnet. That's why I bought the big rare earth honker for $30. I now know I could have easily gotten by with a magnet just about 1/3 the strength of the one I bought.

To strengthen the magnet in the tach, all you have to do is align the fields of your strong magnet to the tach magnet, North to South...this is easy, as it is the only way they will want to touch each other. They will repel if you don't have them lined up right. Once you touch them, slide the stronger magnet across and off.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01378.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01378.jpg.html)

That's all it takes! I did it several times at first, but realized that if I even touched and slid once, that was enough to impart double the strength to the tach that you really need. No adding magnets, bending, or any other fancy tricks...just touch and slide one time!

So, now you have a tach magnet that is too strong. When I spun the tach to 2,000 RPM, the tach registered 4,000 RPM. We have to "dumb it down" to just the right strength. I studied this issue for months. The old speedo shops used a de-gouser. This is a fancy name for an AC driven electromagnet. When you put AC into the coil, the magnetic field flip flops North to South every time the current reverses...so 60 times per second. Just as we used a strong magnetic field to build the tach magnet up...reversing the field rapidly actually knocks it down. We just have to find a de-gouser. Hmmm?? Sounds like a gun type soldering iron is just the ticket...and it is, almost!

The soldering iron works, just not very well. I had to hold it by the tach magnet for considerable time to see any noticeable change in the strength of the magnet. But, it does work. I got impatient, as I usually do, and found a better way. We need to reverse a strong magnetic field in close proximity to the tach magnet. It turned out to be very easy...just use your strong magnet again. All you have to do is move it about an inch from the the tach magnet...while the tach is spinning...and it accomplishes the same thing as a de-gouser. The trick is how long to hold it there. A second or two is all it takes!

Well...that's the theory, now for the practice.

The tach is driven off the distributor at a 1:1 ratio. The distributor is 1:1 with the cam, which is 1:2 with the crankshaft. If you notice, the tach actually says 2:1 right on it's face. I love it when things work out even! The tach has to indicate twice the speed we are actually spinning the input shaft. So, for 3,000rpm indicated, the tach is actually spinning at 1,500 rpm. We need to spin the tach at a known speed to calibrate it. Here is what I chose:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01398.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01398.jpg.html)

I "happened" to have a spare TR3 sitting around, so I just unplugged the speedo drive and used a spare speedo cable to feed the rebuilt tach. The rectangular instrument is the dwell meter I have left over from the 1970's. Yes. I am that old, and...like this old tool...I'm still hanging in there. Any electronic tach will work, just remember the TR3 is positive ground...so the plus goes to the block, and the negative feed to the coil. So now I have a motor to spin my tach, and another independent way of telling how fast it is spinning. In this pic I have the case installed on the tach...don't install the case for calibration, as you have to remove it to change the calibration. (I don't know what I was thinking) Here is the process:

1) Start the car and rev to a steady RPM, where you want the tach to be the most accurate. I used 3,000 RPM, since that is the middle of the scale. That is where I cruise the most. If you rev to the limit regularly, I'd recommend using 5,000 RPM to prevent a chance of overspeed. The point is that we are dealing with a mechanical instrument, so it will not be perfect at more than 2 points on the dial...idle, and whatever point you pick.

2) See what the tach registers. My first run the tach read 6,000 RPM with the actual engine turning 3,000.

3) to slow the tach reading, reduce the strength of the tach magnet by CAREFULLY!! moving the strong magnet 1 inch from the tach magnet, while the tach is still turning. Hold it about 2 seconds and remove the strong magnet. Recheck the tach reading for accuracy. Repeat if needed to weaken the magnet.

4) To speed the tach reading, we need to strengthen the tach magnet. STOP THE ENGINE! Or just unplug the flexible drive. From the back side of the housing, touch the strong magnet to the tach magnet and slide. You do not have to take anything apart to do this...here is how the housing looks from the back:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01510.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01510.jpg.html)

In this pick you can see half the tach magnet. That is where you touch it and slide the larger magnet. Just one side is enough to strengthen it.

5) After repeating step 3 and 4 several times, you will get a perfect calibration. For me, that was exactly 3,000 RPM indicated at 3,000 RPM actual. The final step is to check your idle indication. This setting is controlled by the preload on the clock spring. Remember how we set the needle to line with the small dot, and popped it over the peg on the tach face? That was setting the preload on the needle assembly. If the spring is still in good shape, when you let the engine idle, the indication will be a perfect alignment at the actual RPM. If not, hold the aluminum disc with a finger and carefully turn the needle on the shaft until it is.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01400.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01400.jpg.html)

6) If you had to move the needle to get a perfect idle indication in step 5, then you now have to recalibrate your high indication. It will only take a very quick pass with your "degouser", since you are likely only off a couple hundred RPM at most. Repeat steps 3-5 as necessary to get a perfect idle and high indication.


7) Now, when you are happy...like I finally was after smashing and rebuilding the tach face...firmly press the needle fully onto the shaft.

You are calibrated! All you needed was some way to spin the tach at a known speed, and a big a%$ magnet! I thought the whole process was pretty cool, but I'm easily amazed!!

CJD
03-17-2014, 06:44 PM
Now I was down to "buttoning up" the tach. After everything else I did, this is both easy and fun. Here is the quick and dirty:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01381.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01381.jpg.html)

First, the assembly we have been calibrating goes back in the case. You will likely be confused, like me, as it can go in both the right way...and upside down. The key on the drive dog goes upward, as shown. The case mounting studs also go to the top.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01382.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01382.jpg.html)

Secure the two screws with washers to hold the frame in the case.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01385.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01385.jpg.html)

This is the last chance you will have to make sure the unit is dust free. I blew with air and then dusted the face with a very soft brush. Ignore the fact I have no needle on at this point...yours should be on.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01386.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01386.jpg.html)

I did a final touch up on anything that needed paint. The face mounting screws were a bit tarnished, so they got a dab of black paint, along with the needle stop post.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01393.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01393.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01418.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01418.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01419.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01419.jpg.html)

This is the reflector ring that goes in against the face. Make sure the back side is white, or little light will make it to the instrument face. Now we have to clean the glass.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01394.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01394.jpg.html)

Mine started really nasty. The car sat outdoors for 25 years, and there were water marks showing the tach had filled at some point. I removed the scale with very fine steel wool. I polished a few scratches with a buffing wheel on a drill press, and then finished with windex.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01395.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01395.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01396.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01396.jpg.html)

Now I broke out the new bezel and seal from Nisonger's. They charged $120 for the 6 bezels and seals. Highway robbery for what you get...but they have a corner on the market, so I had to fork over the dough. Maybe one of you guys have a cheaper source you can let us know about.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01422.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01422.jpg.html)

dklawson
03-17-2014, 07:35 PM
John, that is an excellent write up !

This thread is great. I strongly encourage you to write this up in a document that can be circulated. You have shown a lot of great information here that will be of value to more than just Triumph owners!

Great Job !

CJD
03-17-2014, 07:35 PM
The rubber seal fits in the gap between the glass and the case, so it touches both. This is important, as it seems like it should go farther outward, just touching the case. It must touch the glass to protect it. Trim the end for a good fit.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01425.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01425.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01426.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01426.jpg.html)

The bezels come with the locking tabs straight out. The tabs will need to be bent inward. Start this with a large set of pliers, bending about 30 to 45 degrees into each tab.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01427.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01427.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01428.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01428.jpg.html)

Then carefully place the bezel over the tach. Care must be used to keep the rubber seal in place, all the way until the bezel is fully locked. The little thing makes a run for it at every opportunity! Once the bezel is in place, flip the tach face down on a padded table. You now must finish bending the tabs the full 90 degrees to lock the bezel in place. Work around the bezel using a dift or screw driver and only hand force. Do not hammer, as you could knock the needle off. A firm push is all it takes since you already started the bend. It also helps if you rock the tach towards the tab you are working on, so the bezel is on the table, instead of just the domed glass on the table.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01429.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01429.jpg.html)

And...the tach is done and ready to go in storage for the next couple years. One down, and 5 to go! Here is a before and after shot...


https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/tachpic.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/tachpic.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01430.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01430.jpg.html)

Next I move to the speedo...stay tuned!

Marvin Gruber
03-17-2014, 08:05 PM
John
Great job! I have a box full of gauges when you are done with yours. Actually if you need some good faces I have several gauges that don't work but look nice.

Marv

CJD
03-18-2014, 09:22 AM
Marv, I should have checked with you before I got started on this saga 5 months ago! I still might have to for some of the internals on the smaller gages as I get to them. The faces in the photos above are actually from your donor car. I didn't want to destroy the original TR2 faces so I had them for comparison as I went.


Edit:

Before I get going on the speedo rebuild, I just had a revelation while calibrating the speedo. When I said you need a big a%$ magnet...I was wrong. After reading Anthony's speedo write up, I had ordered 4 tiny rare earth magnets, just in case my gous/de-gous failed. Here is a picture of these tiny magnets:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01536.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01536.jpg.html)

They are 1" x 1/4" x 1/16", and on the very strong side as magnets are measured. Here is the revelation...

Only one of these rare earth tiny magnets is enough to calibrate our speedo/tachs!!

Just a single touch and slide is enough to strengthen the speedo magnet, and holding it 1/4" away from the spinning rotor is enough to weaken it. So for $1.50 in magnets, you can calibrate your tach and speedo!

CJD
03-18-2014, 02:57 PM
Time for the speedo installment.

The indicator portion of the Smith's speedos is identical to the tach. In fact, those parts are interchangeable. The difference is the addition of a gear on the spinner magnet, which is what drives the odometers:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01458.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01458.jpg.html)

The large brass disc on the spinner is the worm gear for the odometers. There are 2 gears that slide into the housing to mesh with the worm gear...one on each side. One is for the top trip ododmeter, and the other for the lower mileage odometer.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01451.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01451.jpg.html)

These gears have little cogs on the opposite end, which wobble...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01452.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01452.jpg.html)

The wobbling cogs transfer this wobble to an arm...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01444.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01444.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01445.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01445.jpg.html)

Which simply pushes on a brass ratchet gear that you can see on the end of the number wheels...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01447.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01447.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01470.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01470.jpg.html)

The brass ratchet gear spins the shaft for the number wheels, but the wheels are held from spinning constantly by the shape of the edges of the wheels, which catch on these little reeds on the housing...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01462.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01462.jpg.html)

The right side of each number wheel has a ratchet that catches the reed every digit...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01473.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01473.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01472.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01472.jpg.html)

And the left side of each number wheel has only a single ratchet, which lifts the reed to free the number wheel to it's left...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01474.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01474.jpg.html)

So, the whole process is that the worm gear on the rotor turns the 2 odometer gears. Those gears have an eccentric shaft on the opposite end which wobbles an arm. The arms ratchet the number wheels one tooth at a time. The "tenth's" digit number wheel spins constantly, and every whole turn...or 10 digits...it frees the reed holding the "1's" number wheel. Every full turn of the "1's" wheel frees the "10's" wheel for one digit. And so on down the wheels.


And it is as simple as that!

The problems you will run into is that the grease on all these tiny parts hardens with age. Once hard, the little gears will strip, or the magnetic rotor will freeze and fray the flex drives. The odometer and magnetic rotor assemblies need to be cleaned and re-greased every 10 years to prevent damage. If you carefully clean and regrease every 10 years, there is not much that will wear out. If you wait too long...several parts will be permanently damaged. The parts that can break if you don't regrease include, the flex cable (if you are lucky), the gears, the reeds, and the ratchet wheels. If any of these are broken, with the exception of the flex cable which is sold new, it's time to call Marv for spare "old-old-stock" parts.

So, now that I have the basics...here goes my speedo rebuild

CJD
03-18-2014, 03:17 PM
Speedo Disassembly...

My TR2 speedo had sat out for 25 years, so the numbers were flaking. The numbers are silkscreened on foil strips, which are wrapped around the number drums. I have not found replacement foil, although I have found suppliers for decals. I chose to use the "better" number wheels from Marv's donor car. They are still bad...but at least they are consistent colored and not flaking.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01436.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01436.jpg.html)

If anybody finds a source for new number strips...please let us know.

The initial disassembly is identical to the tach...so I won't bore you again. Once you have the assembly out of the case, needle removed, and face removed, you are looking at this...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01439.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01439.jpg.html)

The long rod is the reset shaft for the trip odometer. I have 4 old Smith's Jaeger speedos, and all 4 had broken reset shafts when I got them. There is a hole through the shaft to hold the reset knob, and the shaft breaks at this weak point. I will cover how to fix the shaft later. The reset shaft slides out once you pry the little cotter key off. These are the parts that slide off with it. Set them aside.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01440.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01440.jpg.html)

Each side of the housing has a toggle arm, held with a clip. Simply lift and slide the clip to remove. There is a small sping, which has to be unhooked before removing each arm.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01441.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01441.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01442.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01442.jpg.html)

This is the trip odometer arm...it is distinct in that there is a bar at the top for the reset shaft to press while you spin the numbers to zero.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01443.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01443.jpg.html)

The mileage arm is shorter and has no bar at the top...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01444.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01444.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01445.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01445.jpg.html)

Now, by removing 4 screws, the housing can be separated from the needle/odometer plate...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01446.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01446.jpg.html)

The trip odometer assembly falls free at this point...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01447.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01447.jpg.html)

Once again, as with the tach, the aluminum disc is only being held by the fragile clock spring. Support the disc until you place some tape to hold it from getting "sprung"

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01449.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01449.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01450.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01450.jpg.html)

The 2 drive gears can now be removed. If the grease is hard, you may have to tap them out. Note that the gears are plastic, so look for a broken tooth at this point. You need a replacement if you have lost a tooth...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01453.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01453.jpg.html)


This shot shows the gear, and the eccentric shaft coming off the end.
https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01454.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01454.jpg.html)

CJD
03-18-2014, 03:37 PM
Now the rotor can be remove by reaching through it to the retaining plate, just like on the tach...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01456.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01456.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01457.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01457.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01458.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01458.jpg.html)

Now you are down to the bare housing. All the black grease has to be removed.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01459.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01459.jpg.html)

Now, back to the number wheels. We'll start with the smaller, trip wheel. This is what you are looking at...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01461.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01461.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01462.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01462.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01463.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01463.jpg.html)

(you'll notice it seems like I'm being obsessive with the number of pics and angles. Although the wheel assemblies are simple, there are a LOT of small parts. You will need as many picks as posible to avoid confusion when it comes time to reassemble!)

This is the end of the wheel with the brass ratchet gear. Press the brass gear towards the numbers, and this clip plate can be pulled up and out...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01465.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01465.jpg.html)

Now the shaft can be slowly removed, carefully removing each wheel one at a time. There is a small brass washer between each wheel...remove these now, or they will fall off the number wheel when you are not looking. They are easy to loose...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01466.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01466.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01467.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01467.jpg.html)

And this is what you end up with...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01469.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01469.jpg.html)

Notice there is a small keyed washer between EVERY wheel! Lay them out as I have and you will not have nay trouble when it comes time to reassemble.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01469.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01469.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01470.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01470.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01471.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01471.jpg.html)

Now we move onto the mileage wheel. It is almost identical. Remove the clip on the brass gear side by pressing the gear inward. Note the clip plate is shaped differently...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01475.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01475.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01477.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01477.jpg.html)

Here is another difference. This plane plate is on the "one's" digit wheel side. Its purpose is to prevent the ones from turning at the same speed as the tenth's wheel on the trip odometer. Notice it has a single ratchet, so it lifts the reed for the one's wheel once each revolution.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01478.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01478.jpg.html)



And you are now fully disassembled! Here is what you should be looking at...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01476.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01476.jpg.html)

And of course, do not be rough with the needle plate...the loss of the clock spring is a deal breaker!

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01480.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01480.jpg.html)

CJD
03-18-2014, 03:48 PM
Now is cleaning time. All the little parts need to be carefully cleaned. Lube them with a small amount of grease or light oil. If you won't be driving the car much, then I would lean towards oil, as it is less likely to turn rock hard. For normal driving habits, I prefer a dab of grease.

Items to take care to check...

1) Look at the 2 plastic gears. They are usually the first to loose a tooth if the grease turns to glue.

2) Look at the 2 toggle arms. One arm pulls against the ratchet gear, the other pushes. There should be a very sharp burr to interact with the brass gear. If the gear froze up, the burr can wear off.

3) Look at each and every tooth on the brass ratchet gears on the wheel drums. There are a lot of teeth, and a single bad tooth will stop the wheel for ever and a day. The ratchet teeth must be perfect.

4) Check the needle bearings on each end of the aluminum disc. They must be straight and not corroded. Use only very light oil, or nothing, to lube these 2 needle bearings.

5) The little reeds that stop the number wheels. They are fragile, and if a wheel jams with the drive shaft, they will break. They must be in good shape, or the respective number wheels will spin continuously. Also make sure they are straight and not bent at any angle to the base plate.

6) The aluminum disc is realy pretty weak. It must rotate in a single plane. In other words, it must not "wobble" when you turn it. Just a little pressure in the right direction will straighten it, if it does wobble. A sign of a bent disc is a speedo needle that "bounces" slightly.

Time for reassembly.

Simply reverse the order we took everything apart. I'll keep it to a concise pictorial.

CJD
03-18-2014, 04:04 PM
Start by assembling the mileage wheel. Start at one end and add a wheel and work your way accross. Use caution not to force anything, as the reeds tend to hang up . Once together, use a small screw driver to set your mileage where you want it. Gently press the reeds below the wheel you want to turn, and spin the numbers. Work on only 1 wheel at a time, and do not be forcefull on the reeds.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01488.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01488.jpg.html)

Don't forget there is a washer for each of the drive gears...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01489.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01489.jpg.html)

Use plenty of grease on the drive gears...but that is the only place to use a good bit. Everything else is sparingly or not at all.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01491.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01491.jpg.html)

If there is a hard part to this whole assembly, this is it. The tiny springs on the toggle arms have to feed through the number wheel assemblies. Be patient...walk away if you get frustrated! I finally had to fashion a hook to pull the springs through. Even then it is tedious at best.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01495.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01495.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01497.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01497.jpg.html)

Don't forget the arm retaining clips...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01500.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01500.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01503.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01503.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01504.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01504.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01505.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01505.jpg.html)

Now the trip wheel. Three of the needle plate screws hold the trip assembly.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01507.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01507.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01509.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01509.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01510.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01510.jpg.html)

CJD
03-18-2014, 04:13 PM
Remember the broken trip reset shaft? Now it's time to address that. My choices were to call Marv and wait a week, or fix the one I have. I decided to go the quick route. I cut about an inch off the end, after measuring exactly where the hole would have to be. I then welded an extension, drilled the new hole, and contnued the speedo assembly...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01511.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01511.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01513.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01513.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01514.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01514.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01515.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01515.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01516.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01516.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01517.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01517.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01518.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01518.jpg.html)

Note you feed the shaft from the top, so the toggle arm has to be moved out of the way...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01519.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01519.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01520.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01520.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01522.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01522.jpg.html)

And it's done! Next is the face plate, the needle, and time to recalibrate...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01523.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01523.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01524.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01524.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01525.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01525.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01526.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01526.jpg.html)

CJD
03-18-2014, 04:45 PM
Speedo Recalibration

For those that skipped ahead, I learned that it only takes a small rare earth magnet to calibrate the speedo. After smashing the tach face with the mutha magnet, I HIGHLY recommend you use the smaller magnet for the procedure. It's....well....more civilized when every knife and screw driver in the shop is not flying at you from every direction.

So, to recap, you will need:

1) a way to spin the speedo at a steady speed. I used a drill and a spare flex drive cable.

2) A stop watch. I used an iphone.

3) A SMALL!!! rare earth magnet.

Here is the magnet I used...$1.50...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01536.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01536.jpg.html)

Here is the set up I used to spin the speedo. You will notice I have a C-clamp by the drill. When you want to weaken the rotor magnet, it has to be spinning so it sees reversing poles. I use the c-clamp to hold the drill trigger at a reasonable speed. The trigger lock on the drill was WAY too fast for the speedo.

Notice also that I always have the speedo oriented as it will be in the car. The needle is counter weighted to balance at the pivot...but over the years I do not trust the counterbalance to be perfect. So orient the gage the way it will be mounted.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01533.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01533.jpg.html)


Here is the synopsis of how this works. I will be making a couple assumptions that I am sure many will not like. Please remember there are many ways to accomplish this process. I am inherently lazy, so this is the easiest I could think of. There are likely more accurate...but more time consuming ways to do it better. Feel free to attempt them if you want...and let us all know how it works.

1) Remember how we set the needle to the little dot on the tach face at about minus 500? There is a similar dot for the speedo at about minus 5 mph. It is essential that you start with the needle set for this dot when the clock spring is unwound. The dot is more important on the speedo than on the tach. Just set the needle and forget about changing it.

2) In Anthony's write up, he recommended a drive test to calibrate. I'm not going to do that. I will make the assumption that the odometer is geared correctly. I will calibrate the speedo to match the odometer reading...and I will be happy with that! In actuality, the speedo will be inaccurate by the same amount that the odometer is inaccurate. I can live with that. I did the same thing on the TR3, and it amounted to a 1% error. Again, I am happy with that small of an error.

3) Remember the game you always play on a road trip, where you hold exactly 60 MPH and time how long it takes to travel a mile? That is what we will be doing. We are going to spin the speedo at exactly 60 MPH using the drill. When the trip odometer passes .1 we will hack the stop watch. After holding the 60 MPH for exactly 60 seconds, we will stop the drill and read how far the odometer registered. One minute should be exactly 1 mile.

There are two possibilities...well three, since you could be right on for the first try. But that is never my luck.

If the distance travelled is less than 1 mile in 1 minute: The speedo is reading to fast. We need to reduce the rotor magnetism. Do that by attaching the c-clamp to the drill trigger to spin the speedo while you place the small rare earth magnet 1/4" from the spinning rotor for 5 seconds.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01531.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01531.jpg.html)

If the distance travelled is greater than 1.0 mile in 1 minute: The speedo is indicating to slow. We need to strengthen the rotor magnet. Touch the rare earth magent to the back of the rotor magnet and slide it outward and off. I guarantee it is now too strong, so after the next timed run you will surely have to repeat the de-goussing step.

Repeat this process until 60 MPH indicated gives you exactly 1 miles travelled.

Once you have checked the accuracy of the speedo at 60 MPH, double check it by holding 30 MPH for 1 minute and see how far the odometer travels. It should be exactly .5 miles. If it is off noticeably, then the clock spring pre-load is off. You likely missed the dot in the first step. Just move the needle a tad in the direction it needs to go...and start over.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01532.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01532.jpg.html)

One point to note...if the needle "bounces" consistently a couple MPH while you are trying to hold a steady speed...the aluminum disc is likely bent. Use a screw driver to gently bend it straight.

Here is my finished speedo. I started with the odometer at zero, so you can see exactly how many trials it took to get it calibrated...one mile per trial. 22 trials.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01537.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01537.jpg.html)

Oh, installing the speedo in the case is exactly like the tach, with the exception of this felt seal for the trip reset shaft. Don't forget it!

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01534.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01534.jpg.html)

And finally, the starting point, for old times sake:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/100_0268.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/100_0268.jpg.html)

I'll be taking a break before I tackle the small gages...

CJD
03-18-2014, 05:04 PM
I know that for every one of you that has an interest in this thread, there have to be 10 thinking "geez, what a long boring post".

I decided to elaborate so much because I studied this junk for 5 months trying to get all the info I could. There are very small bits and pieces located in different forums...VW, Chevy, etc....but it is simply not available in any one location. The big companies are extremely tight lipped when it comes to how this stuff works. Even Anthony's write up is frought with errors. I loved reading it until I got to the part that said to "glue magnets onto the rotor", and I realized he was just guessing.

I write this for those that follow that enjoy doing their own work, and just need the "know how" to make it happen. Plus, I know I'll forget all this by the next restoration...what is the first thing to go when you get old??

TR4nut
03-18-2014, 06:09 PM
John- Boring? Are you nuts?! This is really cool, excellent stuff, thanks for posting. I have one or two speedos with busted reset arms, and until now I've ignored them. I may continue to do so, but this gives me hope that I know at least one person who knows how to fix the problem!

Tr3aguy
03-18-2014, 06:17 PM
All of my dials resemble those in the pictures you keep showing

32299

dklawson
03-18-2014, 08:12 PM
I know that for every one of you that has an interest in this thread, there have to be 10 thinking "geez, what a long boring post".


This is NOT boring at all !

As I mentioned earlier, I REALLY hope you will write your own summary document and post it online so your work is not lost. Threads roll off the bottom of a message board and are too easily forgotten. This is excellent instructional information !

glemon
03-18-2014, 11:12 PM
I think this is one of the most interesting topics I have seen here, I am willing to tackle about anything, but even after reading the excellent tutorial and information don't think I would even attempt to try refinishing an instrument face like you have done, I would try the mechanical bit, and have done a little bit of cleaning and repair on speedos and tachs. As one of the other posters suggested, I too stuck some tiny rare earth magnets on my speedo to get it back up to snuff when it read way too slow.

But man, that instrument face stuff is truly amazing work.

CJD
03-19-2014, 09:50 AM
Thanks to all of you for the support. The goal is to keep as many of our old cars working for as long as we can, by helping each other out! JP, your gages look dirty, but I bet the faces will clean right up with a gentle dusting. They really look pretty good.

It kills me with my old TR2 that someone could just park a car in a back yard, uncovered and in the weather for over 25 years. There should be a law against that kind of abuse. I actually talked to the gentleman that owned it while it sat, and he sounded upset that the guy that bought it from him had sold it. He said "I really hoped he would fix it back up." He had no idea what he did to it. But, that's why we have the forum! As long as I'm still around, this old girl will be back on the road...eventually.

Doug, I could do an updated article, but I'm not really sure how to post a large document. I did learn that after a couple weeks, this thread will pop up under a Google search. Some of the old threads I read for info were over a decade old. So, as long as they don't shut down this forum (God forbid!!), this will be around for those who follow!

Thanks again for the support...I'll be back when I get rolling on the small gages. As you can tell from the pics, I have horns to fix next. I needed to get some of these instruments finished to get more work table space...

TexasKnucklehead
03-19-2014, 08:37 PM
John,

Wow. I suppose I'm one of the ones interested, but I hadn't looked at this thread for some time. Today I couldn't stop reading. The thread is truly interesting. I'd love to see all that in a single document that I could unfold and have at my side when I dig into mine. I thought I was going overboard when I took faces off un-working gauges, cleaned them up and re-installed on working ones, but you've taken it to a whole new level. I had no idea they could be calibrated so easily. Also, I'm impressed that your dwell meter was accurate, as I tried several and finally used my o-scope on the coil+ -but for a different reason.

I have been telling everyone that I have taken apart every nut, screw and bolt in my TR3 restoration -but it's a lie. I have not taken (all) the instruments apart as far as you. Yet. Now that I see what's involved, I might start with the old ones I have. I'd really like to have a little more accuracy in the tach and speedometer. I have been taking them out and spraying wd40 and silicon through them every couple months -when they start bouncing terribly. I've been afraid to take them apart so thank you for posting the details.

I will not attempt to respray the faces. Your work is impressive.
Thanks again, Jer (if you make a single document, please let me have a copy)

Jesus
03-20-2014, 06:55 AM
Hi John,



Thanks for sharing with us this information and for the time invested for our pleasure and knowledge. Some months ago, you did the same with the sidescreen re-covering procedure, and thanks to your excellent posts, I have now a superb pair of them.



I have sent to you an pm, regarding the possibility of printing a speedo face in km/h, which I‘d like to offer now to my TR3A.



Jesús

CJD
03-30-2014, 06:06 PM
Here's a little side project Jesus and I have going:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/TR3A-Speedo-KMH.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/TR3A-Speedo-KMH.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/SpeedoKPH-LeftField.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/SpeedoKPH-LeftField.jpg.html)

We are stuck on the proper part number. Judging from the picture, Smith's obviously produced KPH speedometers. Has anybody out there seen one, and possibly have a picture of one?

HerronScott
03-30-2014, 07:39 PM
What part numbers are you looking for? These are some of the valid ones for the KPH speedometers based on information from Limora and Moss Europe.

S628K 3.7:1 740?
SN6307/05 3.7:1 740? (maybe 737)
SN6307/09 4.1:1 820?

SN6319/01 3.7:1 740?
SN6319/03 4.1:1 820?

Scott

TexasKnucklehead
03-30-2014, 11:11 PM
I thought this was a great forum, with some wonderful people.... But when Jesus comes here asking for help, and gets it, you have to know this is a good place.

CJD
03-31-2014, 10:17 AM
Scott, thats great! I can't believe you came up with them that fast!

Thanks...

Jesus
03-31-2014, 10:53 AM
Hi John,


You seem to walk always some steps ahead of me..., and now you come up with the complete drawing of the KMH face. Great!



As told you by emal, I am trying to get the information about the right codes for the speedo face. It seems that for the standard rear axle ratio of 3.7:1, the turns per kilometer should be 740. The part number must be one of those posted by Scott:

S628K or SN6307/05 or SN6319/02



Anybody knows the differences between them?



Jesús

CJD
03-31-2014, 04:35 PM
I came up with the "733" by applying the km conversion factor to the "1180" for miles. That was a guess, so I'll switch it to 740. We are flexible on the serial number until we are ready to paint...and I'm still waiting to hear from Marv about getting a couple trashed speedos to play with. It's all coming together, though.

I haven't gotten a chance to respond to the email, but it sounds like the gears you found will be very close. I don't think the odometers on many cars are close to perfect anyway.

Cheers!

Jesus
03-31-2014, 05:42 PM
Hi John,



You are right: the value of 733 is the exact required. However, in those Jaeger/Smiths speedos, the actual value of turns per mile or per kilometer must be either multiple of 2 or 5 since the worm gears can have 20, 25 or 32 teeth.


The usual 1180 odometer in miles uses a 20 teeth worm gear and a 59 teeth odometer wheel. I will change the odoemter gear for one with 32 teeth: 20 x 36 = 720 (I would need a 37 teeh gear for more accuracy and reach the 740 figure).


Jesus

TR3driver
03-31-2014, 07:15 PM
There were quite a few different speedometers fitted, depending on things like which tires were fitted by the factory and which commission number. I can't find the "kph" numbers at the moment, but for example one source gives
3.7 axle, Dunlop tires SN6319/00 1184 tpm
3.7 axle, Michelin-X tires SN6319/06 1216 tpm
4.1 axle, Dunlop tires SN6319/02 1312 tpm
4.1 axle, Michelin-X tires SN6319/04 1344 tpm

I believe these would have been after TS60000, not sure about earlier cars.

If I manage to find the kph numbers, I'll post them here.

HerronScott
04-01-2014, 07:38 AM
As told you by emal, I am trying to get the information about the right codes for the speedo face. It seems that for the standard rear axle ratio of 3.7:1, the turns per kilometer should be 740. The part number must be one of those posted by Scott:

S628K or SN6307/05 or SN6319/02

Anybody knows the differences between them?


Jesús,

My guess is that they were slightly different models used during the run of the TR2-TR3B's but I haven't seen any detailed information on when the changes might have occurred.

As Randall indicated, we have information on even more models for the MPH speedometers which included different part numbers within both the SN6307/xx and SN6319/xx range for the different tire types to account for the different rolling diameters plus the different differential ratios. You would have expected the same for the KPH speedometers as well, but I haven't seen any information online to document the different models. Hopefully, Randall can come up with that information.

Here's the information I've found online for the MPH speedometers for comparison.


TR2-3 (Limora)






Part #

Mfg #

Spec. Code




S 628 51 118 504 04


3.7:1










SN 6307/04

108192

3.7:1




SN 6307/11


3.7:1

Optional Michelin X tyres



SN 6307/08

113637

4.1:1




SN 6307/10


4.1:1

Optional Michelin X tyres









SN 6319/00

108192?

3.7:1




SN 6319/06

119047?

3.7:1

Optional Michelin X tyres



SN 6319/02

113632?

4.1:1




SN 6319/04

119046

4.1:1

Optional Michelin X tyres




Scott

TR3driver
04-01-2014, 09:01 AM
Here are some kph numbers I found. Hopefully I can get the columns to line up. The revs/km numbers look suspicious to me, they should be different between the two sizes of tires, but maybe this will help as a starting point for further research.



Axle Original Triumph part Jaeger part Revs/km
ratio tires
3.7 5.50/5.90 108193 SN6319/01 740
4.1 5.90 113632 SN6319/02 820
4.1 155X 120206 SN6319/05 820
3.7 155X 120205 SN6319/07 740

CJD
04-01-2014, 09:27 AM
Scott, Randall, excellent information! Can't thank you guys enough for the help!

Jesus
04-01-2014, 11:28 AM
Scott and Randall, thank you for the information.

I agree, Randall: it is curios why they gave different part numbers to speedos with apparently identical face and identical odometer calibration.
Maybe they changed some other feature (materials, illumination ...).

Regards.

Jesús

CJD
04-02-2014, 11:42 AM
Again, thanks Randall and Scott. Jesus picked the SN he wants. This picture shows how the TR3 serials were marked:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01298.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01298.jpg.html)

And this is the final KPH speedo, as it will look.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/SpeedoKPH-LeftField-2.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/SpeedoKPH-LeftField-2.jpg.html)



I still can't believe you guys came up with the numbers so fast! Anyway, now I just need to find a face to convert.

Marv...You out there?

Thanks again,

John

CJD
04-03-2014, 03:25 PM
While I wait for parts on the KPH project, I'm moving on to the small gages. First up is the fuel gage. The face has been a bit of a pain. The small gages are made .008" brass stampings. The problem with these is that you absolutely cannot bead blast them like I did the speedo and tach. The brass curls right up. When you straighten it, it "oil cans". If you hammer it...it dents. I then had to resort to PDR, or paintless dent removal, techniques to get a reasonably flat faced blank to work with. Save yourself the pain by simply avoiding any type of blasting. So, here is the gouge on refinishing the small faces:

1) Chemically strip the old face in thinner or other solvent.
2) Roughen the brass once it's bare with 400 grit sand paper...gently! This is merely to ensure you do not have the base paint lift later.
3) Option 2 is to roughen the original face paint, and paint right over the old with your black base color.
4) Be gentle on the needle stop pins. I do not know how they crimped those in, but once they are loose, the pin is too weak to re-crimp, and heat will warp the thin brass face. If they do loosen, a dot of super glue on the back of the face will tighten them right back up.

I'll post the face work later. For the mechanical details, I cannot do a better job than the MG Guru did:

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/fg_01.htm

The only thing I can add is that the wires you are dealing with are smaller than hairs. They re-solder easily, but save yourself the trouble by being very, very, gentle! Be sure you need to re-calibrate before you loosen anything around the 2 coils. If it's close, live with it. The movement of the coils makes absolutely no in sense how the needle reacts...so once you start you are in for hours of fiddling until you get it right...and that will be by accident.

And that's all I plan to add about the fuel gage mechanicals!

CJD
04-03-2014, 04:38 PM
This is the pictorial of the fuel gage face. I started pretty cocky after completing the speedo and tach. I thought the small, flat faces would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately, my learning curve was not over. I had to refinish the fuel face 5 times before I was satisfied. The issue was that when I pealed the masking vinyl...some of the numbers would peal right off with the mask.

Bummer.

I ran a dozen tests on the pizza tins, and finally discovered what the problem was. I was using semi gloss white and pealing it to soon. The surface was flashing, but the under layer was still wet. The surface flash was bringing the whole white coat up with it as a sheet. This "flash" problem was accentuated by the fact the markings on the fuel gage are smaller than those on the tach/speedo. The paint wanted to remain as a sheet, instead of breaking and leaving my markings behind. The solution was pretty simple. I switched to flat white, which has a less thick surface flash by its nature. And, I let the white dry for a couple hours before pealing. All was good...and I will start the last 3 gages much more humble!

This is the blank face. If you look closely, you will notice the slight waviness. This is as good as I could massage the thin metal after making the mistake of bead blasting it. For those who follow...don't bead blast! The waves will be optically broken once the markings are on, so it will not be noticeable (I hope!?!)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01574.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01574.jpg.html)

The tach/speedo were just wrapped with the vinyl. The small gages have a rim, which poses a special challenge. I had to pre-cut the mask to fit down within the rim:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01575.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01575.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01576.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01576.jpg.html)

After the first attempt, I learned to add the small tabs to help peal the mask back. It was a bear without it. Now time for the laser to do its thing...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01577.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01577.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01578.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01578.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01579.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01579.jpg.html)

This is my first try (out of 5 I'm sad to say). Notice I forgot to cover the small needle stops.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01580.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01580.jpg.html)

By attempt 5, I remembered the pins. All told, between the test runs and failed tries, a dozen is a charm.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01581.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01581.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01582.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01582.jpg.html)

CJD
04-11-2014, 10:32 AM
I finished the little gages. This will be my last installment on "how to" with gages...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01584.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01584.jpg.html)

These are the 2 fuel gages I have. The one on the left was so bad the tip of the needle corroded off. But it still works! Before putting a lick on time into either, I checked the continuity of the coils using an ohm meter. This is the right coil. It should be around 100 ohms, give or take.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01586.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01586.jpg.html)

And this is the left coil and resistor together. 60 ohms here is correct, give or take. If the reading is 100 or more, then one is open.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01587.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01587.jpg.html)

I decided to keep the gage on the right. First, I cleaned the gage inside, and bead blasted the outside. The tiny wires are merely coated in laquer for instulation, so no harsh cleaners, like carb or brake cleaners. Here is what I recommend:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01632.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01632.jpg.html)

Now to paint the needle. I used the same Krylon flat white as the faces.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01585.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01585.jpg.html)

This is the clear plastic "window" that lets the light from the external bulb into the instrument. It must be clean and clear to work. Ensure it fits properly around the face. It is not complicated, so you can fashion one from any clear platic sheet if yours is broken.
'

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01588.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01588.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01589.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01589.jpg.html)

CJD
04-11-2014, 10:47 AM
I started the fuel gage first, because I knew it is the biggest pain to deal with...mainly from calibrating. If you read the write up on the link above, you see how complicated the "calibrator" can be. I will show you how simple it can be...

Start by mounting the gage face, with light ring:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01591.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01591.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01590.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01590.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01591.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01591.jpg.html)

Notice that the factory light ring has a gap. I think it shrinks over time. I place this gap on the side that will be opposite the dash light bulb, so I can seal it with vinyl tape...to keep out a bit of the enevitable dust.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01592.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01592.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01594.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01594.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01625.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01625.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01599.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01599.jpg.html)

This pic is a fuel sender from a Range Rover I have laying around. I marked the float arm to show 70 ohms (full tank), 0 ohms (empty tank), and the 1/4's in between. That's all I used!

I will not go into detail about the calibrating, since it has already been done. Just a few tips, though:

1) The "E" side is best set by bending the needle to line up when the input from the sender is 0 ohm. This is because there really is no adjustment for the "E" needle position.

2) The "F" adjustment is mostly done using the "F" side coil adjustment. It is so sensitive that just starting to tighten or loosen the nut is enough to make a 1/4 indication difference.

3) The "E" side coil adjustment is primarily for the mid range fine tuning. Same here...very sensitive!!

4) never loosen the adjusting nuts more than one turn! This will allow the alignment tab for the coil to come out of the slot...and then the wires will break when you try to tighten the nut!!

Now the final assembly:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01595.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01595.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01596.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01596.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01597.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01597.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01604.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01604.jpg.html)

CJD
04-11-2014, 11:05 AM
Next up, the oil . This is an entirely mechanical gage. Here is how the inside looks:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01605.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01605.jpg.html)

It is super simple. The rounded gland is hollow. As oil pressure is allowed inside the gland, it tried to unwind and straighten out. The motion form this unwinding is transfered to the needle by a wire soldered to the gland. That's it!

This is a newer version of the gage. It has a few different details, but it is still exactly the same mechanism:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01608.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01608.jpg.html)

I removed the nut holding the mechanism in the case and bead blasted everything.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01609.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01609.jpg.html)

The earlier gage has an adjustment for sensitivity. You bend the wire to calibrate, but this screw is used to control the range of the needle.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01610.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01610.jpg.html)

And of course...there is a clock spring. The spring takes up the "slack" in the mechanism, so any play is takne up. Use care with it...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01611.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01611.jpg.html)

I taped the needle and spring before blasting.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01612.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01612.jpg.html)

Calibrating is fairly simple compared to the fuel gage, but then anything is simple compared to that!! First, I placed the face on the case and marked the location of the 0, 50psi, and 100 psi. The face must come off to calibrate, so it is more convenient to leave it off and use the transferred marks:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01615.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01615.jpg.html)

Now, I used my air hose with a gage and regulator. Just adjust the air to the pressure you want to calibrate, and input that pressure into the gage nipple using a rubber tipped nozzle.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01617.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01617.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01618.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01618.jpg.html)

Bend the wire on the gland to set the "0" indication. Adjust the screw to get the 100 indication.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01620.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01620.jpg.html)

As with all our simple gages, I pick the number I want to be most accurate. In normal driving, 100 psi is not a usual number. I made the gage perfect at 50 psi, since that is midrange. For my gage, the best I could get was 50 at actual 50...but 90 indicated at 100 actual. That is close enough for me. If I had a couple hours, I might have been able to get it closer.

And, the reassembled gage:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01621.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01621.jpg.html)

CJD
04-11-2014, 11:15 AM
Now the ammeter.

This gage is different...literally. It is not Smith, but Lucas. The glass on the front is less convex:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01627.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01627.jpg.html)

And, the bezel is actually the outside of the gage case too. Here is the ammeter bezel on the left, compared to the other gage bezels:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01628.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01628.jpg.html)

The inside of the gage is as simple as it gets. The needle is attahed to a steel plate. There is no spring to center, but rather a magnet that centers the needle. You have to bend the needle to center it.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01626.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01626.jpg.html)

This picture us blurry, but you can make out the gist. There is a single loop of thick wire. All the electrical load of the car must go through this loop. When it does, it makes an electromagnetic field that deflects the needle. That's it. No surprises. And no adjustments...hurray!

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01630.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01630.jpg.html)

Again, painting the needle:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01633.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01633.jpg.html)

Cleaning the bezel/case:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01635.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01635.jpg.html)

Adding the face and light ring is very tricky. I couldn't do it and take pics, but suffice to say you have to balance the glass, seal, face, light ring...and then slowly and carefully lower the bezel over it all. It took a few tries to get it. Afterwards, re-crimp the bezel tabs.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01636.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01636.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01637.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01637.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01638.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01638.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01639.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01639.jpg.html)

CJD
04-11-2014, 11:31 AM
The final is the Temp gage. If your tube is crimped or broken...you are best to send it off. I will one day study how to fix a broken capillary tube, but I don't know now how to do it. The gages itself is identical to the oil pressure gage in mechanism and function. The only difference is the long capillary...that must be treated with kid gloves. Gently bend the capillary into a coil, removing any sharp bends. Tie lock it like this and leave it alone as much as possible. I did bead blast the bulb and tube, and sprayed with clear laquer on the tube only.

The mechanism can be removed from the case for cleaning, but the case will remain on the tube while you do it. Annoying, but not a problem.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01642.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01642.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01643.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01643.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01644.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01644.jpg.html)

Again, the mechanism is just like the oil gage in design:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01646.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01646.jpg.html)

This is the wire from the gland, disconnected from the needle for cleaning. Notice there is no adjusting screw. You increase sensitivity by putting the wire contact point closer to the needle pivot point. Reduce sensitivity by moving the wire contact point farther out on the needle arm.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01647.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01647.jpg.html)

Once again, mark the outside of the case to match the face markings:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01648.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01648.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01649.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01649.jpg.html)

Calibrating is easy. The 212 degree mark is the one just below the full range, 230 degree mark. You boil some water on the stove...put the bulb in the water (not laying on the bottom though)...and adjust the needle to the mark. When you're happy with that, run some water in the sink and adjust it to body temp, give or take. Run the bulb in the stream and the needle should return to the 90 degree mark.

Bend the wire shorter or longer to set the 90 and 212. Move the wire contact point inward on the needle arm for more range or outward for less. Don't forget you have some adjustment at 90 degrees by bending hte needle slightly.

Assemble and you're done.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01651.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01651.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01653.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01653.jpg.html)

Jesus
04-11-2014, 05:36 PM
John,


You have done again a great twofold job: by restoring the gages in detail and by teaching us their features with so many photos!
Playing with the capillarity tube, the bulb and the ether inside is a challenge as well. There is some information out there on how to solder a new bulb with the gas to a gage with broken tube. I assume that you know it; otherwise, I can send it to you.


Are the faces in these gages the original ones, or did you paint the lettering?


Thanks again for sharing all this information.


Jesus

CJD
04-11-2014, 08:06 PM
Hey Jesus! Those were the re-painted faces. When I install them all in the dash I'll post a before and after.

I'd love to see the link to the capillary repair! Still waiting to hear from Marv about the speedo face...I'll let you know when he catches up!

Jesus
04-12-2014, 06:08 AM
John,

There is an excellent description on the repair in the link:
https://www.ply33.com/Repair/tempgauge
Aside from this, I’ll send to you a more basic document on the operation principles of the gauge.
Jesus

CJD
04-12-2014, 09:50 PM
Interesting reading...thanks!

CJD
06-04-2014, 11:16 AM
Just for anyone still interested... here are a few pics of the KPH project...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01808.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01808.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01809.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01809.jpg.html)

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01810.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01810.jpg.html)

TexasKnucklehead
06-04-2014, 03:56 PM
Nice work. Very nice.
And it goes faster that way -it goes all the way to 200!

CJD
08-12-2017, 11:19 PM
Speedo Recalibration

For those that skipped ahead, I learned that it only takes a small rare earth magnet to calibrate the speedo. After smashing the tach face with the mutha magnet, I HIGHLY recommend you use the smaller magnet for the procedure. It's....well....more civilized when every knife and screw driver in the shop is not flying at you from every direction.

So, to recap, you will need:

1) a way to spin the speedo at a steady speed. I used a drill and a spare flex drive cable.

2) A stop watch. I used an iphone.

3) A SMALL!!! rare earth magnet.

Here is the magnet I used...$1.50...

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01536.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01536.jpg.html)

Here is the set up I used to spin the speedo. You will notice I have a C-clamp by the drill. When you want to weaken the rotor magnet, it has to be spinning so it sees reversing poles. I use the c-clamp to hold the drill trigger at a reasonable speed. The trigger lock on the drill was WAY too fast for the speedo.

Notice also that I always have the speedo oriented as it will be in the car. The needle is counter weighted to balance at the pivot...but over the years I do not trust the counterbalance to be perfect. So orient the gage the way it will be mounted.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01533.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01533.jpg.html)


Here is the synopsis of how this works. I will be making a couple assumptions that I am sure many will not like. Please remember there are many ways to accomplish this process. I am inherently lazy, so this is the easiest I could think of. There are likely more accurate...but more time consuming ways to do it better. Feel free to attempt them if you want...and let us all know how it works.

1) Remember how we set the needle to the little dot on the tach face at about minus 500? There is a similar dot for the speedo at about minus 5 mph. It is essential that you start with the needle set for this dot when the clock spring is unwound. The dot is more important on the speedo than on the tach. Just set the needle and forget about changing it.

2) In Anthony's write up, he recommended a drive test to calibrate. I'm not going to do that. I will make the assumption that the odometer is geared correctly. I will calibrate the speedo to match the odometer reading...and I will be happy with that! In actuality, the speedo will be inaccurate by the same amount that the odometer is inaccurate. I can live with that. I did the same thing on the TR3, and it amounted to a 1% error. Again, I am happy with that small of an error.

3) Remember the game you always play on a road trip, where you hold exactly 60 MPH and time how long it takes to travel a mile? That is what we will be doing. We are going to spin the speedo at exactly 60 MPH using the drill. When the trip odometer passes .1 we will hack the stop watch. After holding the 60 MPH for exactly 60 seconds, we will stop the drill and read how far the odometer registered. One minute should be exactly 1 mile.

There are two possibilities...well three, since you could be right on for the first try. But that is never my luck.

If the distance travelled is less than 1 mile in 1 minute: The speedo is reading to fast. We need to reduce the rotor magnetism. Do that by attaching the c-clamp to the drill trigger to spin the speedo while you place the small rare earth magnet 1/4" from the spinning rotor for 5 seconds.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01531.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01531.jpg.html)

If the distance travelled is greater than 1.0 mile in 1 minute: The speedo is indicating to slow. We need to strengthen the rotor magnet. Touch the rare earth magent to the back of the rotor magnet and slide it outward and off. I guarantee it is now too strong, so after the next timed run you will surely have to repeat the de-goussing step.

Repeat this process until 60 MPH indicated gives you exactly 1 miles travelled.

Once you have checked the accuracy of the speedo at 60 MPH, double check it by holding 30 MPH for 1 minute and see how far the odometer travels. It should be exactly .5 miles. If it is off noticeably, then the clock spring pre-load is off. You likely missed the dot in the first step. Just move the needle a tad in the direction it needs to go...and start over.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01532.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01532.jpg.html)

One point to note...if the needle "bounces" consistently a couple MPH while you are trying to hold a steady speed...the aluminum disc is likely bent. Use a screw driver to gently bend it straight.

Here is my finished speedo. I started with the odometer at zero, so you can see exactly how many trials it took to get it calibrated...one mile per trial. 22 trials.

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01537.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01537.jpg.html)

Oh, installing the speedo in the case is exactly like the tach, with the exception of this felt seal for the trip reset shaft. Don't forget it!

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/DSC01534.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/DSC01534.jpg.html)

And finally, the starting point, for old times sake:

https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/cjdurant/100_0268.jpg (https://s1082.photobucket.com/user/cjdurant/media/100_0268.jpg.html)

I'll be taking a break before I tackle the small gages...

Today I took the TR2 out to run some errands. Not finding what I needed, I wound up 70 miles away from home, and then had to rush home before the storm front hit...having not brought the hood with me since I thought I'd only be gone 30 minutes. Anyway, the point is I finally got the car on an extended freeway run and had time to check the speedo accuracy vs the Phone GPS. The speedo was spot on from 30 mph all the way up to 85 mph. I went to 100 trying not to get run over by the Texas Superduty pickups, but I failed to remove my white knuckles from the wheel long enough to check the accuracy that fast!?!

That shows that the magnetizing technique in this post lasts at least 3 years. I was impressed at the accuracy of the Smith speedo over such a large range. I can take credit at 30 and 60...where I calibrated it. But I can't take credit at the range of accuracy of the gage itself... it amazed me that it stays accurate all the way to 85!

Tr3aguy
08-13-2017, 08:53 AM
:encouragement:OYep that first time an 18 wheeler rolls by on the interstate highway can be a bit fun... that is great to hear. I have marked this for reference as I have with all of your posts John. Glad that your are getting some drive time in!

CJD
08-13-2017, 09:06 AM
:encouragement:OYep that first time an 18 wheeler rolls by on the interstate highway can be a bit fun... that is great to hear. I have marked this for reference as I have with all of your posts John. Glad that your are getting some drive time in!

I used to say these cars were about as safe as a motorcycle. At least on a motorcycle your head is higher than the 18 wheel tires. In the Triumph your head's only half way up the tire. I think I have to lower the safety estimate some?!? I also decided Jerry is a real man's man for being able to put so many freeway miles on his car!

Geo Hahn
08-13-2017, 12:22 PM
...In the Triumph your head's only half way up the tire...

But at a stop light you can look at your reflection in the hub cap and comb your hair - if you have hair to comb.

Great write and technique! Thanks!

CJD
08-13-2017, 04:37 PM
But at a stop light you can look at your reflection in the hub cap and comb your hair - if you have hair to comb.


Your optimism always lifts my spirits!

Tr3aguy
08-15-2017, 09:50 PM
No hair just sunscreen.... or a hat depending how long the outing is...


But at a stop light you can look at your reflection in the hub cap and comb your hair - if you have hair to comb.

Great write and technique! Thanks!