PDA

View Full Version : TR4/4A Belated Happy New Year, glad to be back on the forum, and have a starter question...



tdskip
01-11-2014, 01:19 PM
First, and most important, belated best wishes to all my old friends on the forum. I've had to take a break from being active here due to some unfortunate "adjustments" in my family situation but hope you are have been, and are, well.

Jumping right back in I have a question on my '67 TR4a starter, specifically why the bloody thing is fighting me. Here is what is going on:

Set up:

New battery with plenty of cranking power that is fully charged
New starter switch
New starter solenoid with plenty thick/good condition cables from battery to starter
Older high torque starter
Starter unit has a jumper from the internal solenoid to thick current input cable from solenoid

Issue:

The starter will engage, turn the engine over slowly, then click and not engage any further. Occassionally she'll start but that happens less than 20% of the time, which turns out to be kind of a pain if you are trying to use the car to, say, run to the supermarket

If I connect jumper cables to the TR4a battery from a running car the starter engages and turns the car over and she'll start

Potential problems / fixes:

My working assumption is that I have a dodgy starter. Any ideas for me before I sell some plasma to replace it?

Thanks guys.

Rhodyspit75
01-11-2014, 01:32 PM
If it starts with a jump I would suspect battery. Can you throw another battery in from something else and see if it works?

mrv8q
01-11-2014, 01:33 PM
Great to see you back, Tom!

NutmegCT
01-11-2014, 01:38 PM
Tom - welcome back. When did the starter last work correctly?

Tom

HerronScott
01-11-2014, 01:52 PM
Welcome back Tom!

Scott

TR3driver
01-11-2014, 02:04 PM
Older high torque starter
Does that mean one of the gear-drive starters? If so, this might be relevant. My older gear-drive starter was turning slower and slower; and sometimes refusing to turn at all (click-nothing). When I pulled it apart, I found that the armature runs in ball bearings, which were totally ruined, allowing the armature to drag on the pole pieces. It looks like just changing those two little ball bearings should bring it back to life.

(I happened to have a spare motor on hand, so I installed that and haven't tried the replacement bearings yet.)


Starter unit has a jumper from the internal solenoid to thick current input cable from solenoid

I doubt this is your problem, but just a thought. If you run the big cable to the input (battery) side of the original solenoid, it will get more power to the starter motor. You can run a separate smaller wire from the output of the original solenoid to the control line (spade terminal) of the integral solenoid.


Any ideas for me before I sell some plasma to replace it?
Immediately after cranking until it won't turn any more, feel all of the connections between the starter and the battery. Don't forget the ground straps. If anything feels hot, you've found a problem. The ground strap at the LF motor mount is frequently overlooked; as is the connection between the battery ground cable and the body.

I would also, just as a matter of course, remove both battery clamps and clean both the clamps and posts with one of those wire brush post cleaners. It's easy for the surfaces to be oxidized enough to interfere with current flow, but not enough to see. When you reinstall the clamps, make sure they grip the posts firmly before the ears of the clamp touch.

DNK
01-11-2014, 03:02 PM
Tom- Hope the pressure has relieved a little so you can enjoy life.
Missed you Bud!

M_Pied_Lourd
01-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Welcome back Tom. As Don said, we missed ya!

Cheers
Tush

tdskip
01-11-2014, 03:45 PM
Thanks guys, appreciate the notes and looking forward to getting caught up with everyone. I trust you all have been busy.

Rhody, the battery is brand new and fully charged and in rude health, so I don't believe that is the issue. Thanks for th idea however.

Randall, will give some of those suggestions a try and report back. Thanks guys!

Geo Hahn
01-11-2014, 04:48 PM
I like the idea of a poor ground body-to-engine as that could account for why all goes well when you jump since most folks connect the ground jumper cable to the engine block & thus bypass the ground strap by the left front motor mount that Randall mentioned.

Crankshaft
01-11-2014, 05:44 PM
I'm a believer in fixing the cheap easy things first, so are you sure the terminals are good and clean.

HAWAIICJ
01-12-2014, 09:11 AM
Get a volt meter to measure the voltage drop across all cables and connections to quickly rule out good and identify problems.

KVH
01-12-2014, 01:24 PM
I just want to relate my experience: Checked and repaired all suspicious wiring, checked the solenoid, used all methods for verifying voltage drop--to the best of my limited abilities, called Moss tech support, replaced the battery, and finally took my starter into a shop for a check-up. They said my starter was fine. I spent hours rechecking everything and re-reading all the posts and instructions.

Then, a friend asked me who checked out my starter. I told him. He said to try someone else. I did, and they assured me my starter was virtually garbage, with shorted fields, bad brushes, etc. They rebuilt it for $70 and I have a great, strong starter.

Electrics aren't my thing. But I'm in good shape now.

tdskip
01-12-2014, 03:09 PM
I doubt this is your problem, but just a thought. If you run the big cable to the input (battery) side of the original solenoid, it will get more power to the starter motor. You can run a separate smaller wire from the output of the original solenoid to the control line (spade terminal) of the integral solenoid.

Hi guys - so I cleaned and reconnected all of the battery and ground connections, no difference.

When, however, I did the above as suggested by Randall she fired right up. I tested this by disconnecting the spade wire (on the high torque starter that was connected to the large power cable connected to the main terminal on the starter) and jumped it to the open spade terminal on the starter solenoid on the body of the car, as pictured here (alligator clip).

This terminal (were alligator clip is attached) appears to be always hot and the starter clicks when it is connected. I am pretty sure I don't what that always on so I evidently need to pick a different terminal but am not sure which one to use.

Thanks guys - getting close... Hope everyone is have a good Sunday (and everyone is thawing out up North and back East)

NutmegCT
01-12-2014, 03:12 PM
Say, could you post a photo of the complete starter? Might help us figure out what you're working with.

Tom

tdskip
01-12-2014, 03:50 PM
Say, could you post a photo of the complete starter? Might help us figure out what you're working with.

Tom

Hi Tom - standard high torque starter, one large post and one spade terminal. Here is a picture of how the starter solenoid is currently set up.

Large terminal with thick black cable is to battery, thick black cable on the right goes to the starter. Bottom wire is white/red, top is solid brown.

Open spade terminal on bottom to immediate left of the red/white wire is where I attached the alligator clip above to jump the starter per the post above.


31130


Thanks!

PatGalvin
01-14-2014, 12:42 PM
Hi Tom

Welcome back to the forum and Happy New Year.
Was great to see your post and hear you are back in the LBC seat!

Hope to have a chance to visit sometime soon.

Pat

tdskip
01-14-2014, 12:52 PM
Hi Tom

Welcome back to the forum and Happy New Year.
Was great to see your post and hear you are back in the LBC seat!

Hope to have a chance to visit sometime soon.

Pat

Hey! Thanks for the note Pat, hope things are well and am keen to hear about where the '3 stands.

poolboy
01-14-2014, 01:25 PM
Hey Tom..I thought maybe you went completely Porsche on us.
Good to see you again.

tdskip
01-14-2014, 01:29 PM
Hey Tom..I thought maybe you went completely Porsche on us.
Good to see you again.

Ha! The 911 is an interesting car I have to say, not always for the right reasons.

Hope you are well.

TR3driver
01-17-2014, 11:53 AM
When, however, I did the above as suggested by Randall she fired right up. I tested this by disconnecting the spade wire (on the high torque starter that was connected to the large power cable connected to the main terminal on the starter) and jumped it to the open spade terminal on the starter solenoid on the body of the car, as pictured here (alligator clip).

This terminal (were alligator clip is attached) appears to be always hot and the starter clicks when it is connected. I am pretty sure I don't what that always on so I evidently need to pick a different terminal but am not sure which one to use.
Right. That spade on the solenoid is always hot (and is normally used to feed power to the rest of the car). You'll need to connect your starter wire to the other big terminal, which is hot only when the solenoid is energized. Here's a shot of my TR3. The new brown wire on the bottom goes to the small terminal on the gear-drive starter.

PS Radio Shack or your local electronics store should have a ring terminal suitable for the solenoid post. https://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103495

31220

tdskip
01-17-2014, 12:16 PM
Thanks Randall!

drooartz
01-17-2014, 10:55 PM
Welcome back, Tom!

toysrrus
01-18-2014, 03:33 AM
Hi Tom,

Glad to hear your back in the saddle. Personally, I`m not an Elec. person but just for the heck of it; I would loosen the ground bolt on the "Firewall" & make sure you have "Bare Metal" for the contact vs. "Painted Surface".

You`ve probably done this already but If not; Its an inexpensive check.

Welcome Back,

Russ

tdskip
01-18-2014, 08:27 AM
Thanks guys, good to be back and active here. Appreciate the notes.

I'm pretty sure Randall's suggestion will take care of it, I just need to find the time to actually make the wire for that connection, will probably knock it out today. I'll let you know.

tdskip
01-19-2014, 03:26 PM
OK, so snuck some time in on the car between Dad duty and, well, Dad duty. Turns out the issue was a bad connection on the control wire to the hot post on the high torque starter. The crimping wasn't done properly so only a few strands were taking the full load. Over time this fried those few strands making the connection even worse. I remade that post to control space terminal, soldering them properly, and problem solved.

Thanks again guys.

DNK
01-19-2014, 03:54 PM
:eagerness:

tdskip
01-19-2014, 05:04 PM
:eagerness:

Hi Don. Now to figure out why the OD isn't engaging. Won'tbe as simple I am afraid.

Should be good driving weather down there now for you,no?