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View Full Version : TR2/3/3A Girling 10" Rear Brakes question



TR4nut
07-31-2013, 12:36 PM
Last weekend I helped a friend redo his rear brakes - 10" Girling setup. I thought I was qualified enough to help because I had done this last year for my pre-60K TR3A project. I think I may have done it wrong, however - both my project car, and his car had both steady posts as well as spring loaded shoe retaining pins. The steady posts were unique to the Girling 10" setup and I've not seen a writeup on them.

So questions:

1) Is there a factory manual out there describing the 10" drums with the steady posts?

and

2) Were both of these cars incorrectly setup since they had both steady posts and retaining springs? I thought that was normal but looking at the Moss offerings it looks as though the steady posts were the only thing that should have been there - not the retaining pins. Is that right? Seems a little confusing because there are holes in the backplate as well as holes in the brake shoes that work nicely with the retaining pins.

Thanks
Randy

Geo Hahn
07-31-2013, 05:45 PM
Mine (TS47905) had both... but I only had 3 of the 4 spring doo-hickeys so I omitted all of them and just used the steady post. No problemo.

TR4nut
07-31-2013, 06:02 PM
Thanks Geo- my theory is building that there are a significant number of cars around that commission number that we equipped with both. My commission is just under 46000, my friends is in the 47000 neighborhood (not being secretive, just can't remember the exact numbers). Your car makes it 3. Seems too coincidental to just be a previous owner thing.

From reading around on the subject I do know Don Elliot only has steady posts on his 10" brake setup - but I think Don's commission is a bit earlier too.

TR3driver
07-31-2013, 07:42 PM
Interesting. One of my previous TR3As had the posts and no hold down springs, but I don't recall the commission number offhand. Seems like it was around TS42xxx. It had a really strange clunk that I eventually traced to the post not being properly adjusted ... when you applied the brakes, the shoes would walk out to match the drum, then fall back with a clunk a second or two after releasing them. There were extra holes in the shoes, but I don't recall any extras in the back plates.

TS39781LO should have had posts, but had the later 9" brakes installed (with springs) when it came to me.

No evidence in the SPC of the hold-down springs being fitted along with the posts.

Jerry
07-31-2013, 10:49 PM
I just did my 10 inch and they have the posts but no retaining pins. But, the springs in the back don't hold one side quite tight to the rear plate, causing some scraping on the drum. So the retaining pins might be a good add to the system. I am going to run it a bit and see what is rubbing (should show some shiny metal) prior to decision on the retaining pins.

Jerry
TR3A post 60000

TR3driver
08-01-2013, 04:58 PM
Sounds like you might have the springs in wrong, or they are distorted. On mine, they pulled the shoes firmly against the back plate (and there was even a fair amount of wear at the contact points).

Jerry
08-01-2013, 08:34 PM
possible, but I could not figure out another way to install the springs. Both are in the back of the shoes, smaller one on top.
Jerry

TR4nut
08-01-2013, 11:36 PM
Jerry-

Was your car modified by a previous owner? For a post-60000 car I'd expect you'd have 9" drums, and the normal retaining pin setup with no posts.

Randy

Jerry
08-02-2013, 12:47 AM
Randy,
that is VERY possible. The PO has done many changes. I have Type B calipers on the front, 10 inch on the back, A TR4 engine as per the serial number. The car came with two 40 DCOE weber, but not installed in the car. So, not an original car. I keep thinking about your thought that the springs are not installed correctly, I just don't see another way to do it unless there are other holes to put the springs. But I will check. Thanks for the suggestion.

jerry

Geo Hahn
08-03-2013, 11:08 AM
...I could not figure out another way to install the springs. Both are in the back of the shoes, smaller one on top...

Are we all talking about the same springs?

I thought the discussion was retaining springs (127-129) vs steady posts (130-132):

https://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/ItemImages/Large/GRID200427.jpg

One would think that only one or the other was needed but (as noted above) at least some cars seem to have both.

Jerry's comment "smaller one on top" sounds like he means the springs that pull the shoes back from the drum (124 & 125) though the smaller/shorter is on the bottom.

Jerry
08-03-2013, 11:14 AM
The big springs., about 6 inches long prior to stretching the shoes in place.

Jerry

TR3driver
08-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Jerry's comment "smaller one on top" sounds like he means the springs that pull the shoes back from the drum (124 & 125) though the smaller/shorter is on the bottom.
Little bit of thread drift here. I believe Jerry was talking about the return springs; as on most 10" with the posts, the return springs are the only thing holding the shoes against the posts.

It's been too long, I can't quite remember. Does anyone else have return springs where the ends turn outward on the front side of the shoes, instead of inward? They're shown that way in the back of the Bentley.

Geo Hahn
08-03-2013, 01:11 PM
... Does anyone else have return springs where the ends turn outward on the front side of the shoes, instead of inward? They're shown that way in the back of the Bentley.

If you mean -- does the spring hook into the shoe from behind so the tip of the hook is visible when the springs and shoes are installed -- then yeah, that how mine are.

I always install the springs on the shoes then stretch the pair of shoes into place. No idea if that is the right way or even the best way, just works better than diddling with each spring after the shoes are on.

Sure wish I had taken some pics the last time around.

TR3driver
08-04-2013, 02:33 AM
Actually, I meant the ends of the springs are shaped like this diagram (from the workshop manual), rather than like the one you posted

28457

I agree about it being much easier to install the springs on the shoes first, and then the shoes onto the backplate.

TR3driver
08-04-2013, 02:46 AM
Sure wish I had taken some pics the last time around.
Well duh ... I did take some pictures, just forgot about them. Here's a shot with the springs installed (properly I think)
https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh260/TR3driver/TS13571L/th_DSCF0010-1.jpg (https://s258.photobucket.com/user/TR3driver/media/TS13571L/DSCF0010-1.jpg.html)
and the bare back plate where you can see the pegs (barely) and the lack of extra holes
https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh260/TR3driver/TS13571L/th_DSCF0013-3.jpg (https://s258.photobucket.com/user/TR3driver/media/TS13571L/DSCF0013-3.jpg.html)

Jerry
08-05-2013, 12:14 AM
That is what my brake shoes and springs look like.

Jerry

PatGalvin
08-06-2013, 06:22 PM
Don't know if this photo helps?

https://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae352/PatGalvin_bucket/Differential%20Install/IMG_9431Large_zps69b5e804.jpg (https://s987.photobucket.com/user/PatGalvin_bucket/media/Differential%20Install/IMG_9431Large_zps69b5e804.jpg.html)

Geo Hahn
08-06-2013, 08:06 PM
Don't know if this photo helps?

Well, it helps me feel bad about how grotty mine look.

I do now see the difference in springs Randall mentioned. Yours hook onto the hole (like one might expect) rather than reach thru and rest against the shoe (like in Randall's photo).

BTW -- Have you noticed that your car is upside-down?

TR3driver
08-06-2013, 08:47 PM
Are those even 10" brakes? I thought the folded hold down springs and smaller adjuster assembly were part of the 9" versions.

TR4nut
08-06-2013, 10:02 PM
Those look like 9". Adjusters for sure are 9" style, not like the bulkier 10" version. And very nice 9" I might add, I agree with Geo's comments!

The 10" drums I just set up have the springs turned down like Randall shows. Only difference is I've found spring retaining clips in addition to the steady posts.

Jerry
08-10-2013, 11:24 AM
Nice picture, I will go back and check mine to be sure the springs are on correct. By the way those MOSS shoes I bought were REAL tight to get the drum on. I had to do some adjusting.
Jerry

TR3driver
08-10-2013, 06:34 PM
A common complaint. Back in the bad old days, the new friction material would be ground down to just match your drums, but almost no one does that any more. A shame too, as I recall it made a big difference in my first car (full size Chevy with front drum brakes & no power assist).

TR4nut
08-10-2013, 07:12 PM
I used an old belt from a belt sander, just cut it and used the long wide sandpaper surface to sand down the shoes once they were in place. Fiddly operation but didn't take too much effort as they were pretty close to the correct size.

Aradford46
06-01-2015, 04:11 PM
I'm in the process of rebuilding a Girling 10" brake and find I am missing the steady posts. Does anyone know of a source for these or even a rough drawing and I could make them maybe.

TR3driver
06-01-2015, 10:06 PM
I've got some somewhere. If no one else chimes in by tomorrow, I'll start hunting for them. Don't really want to let them go, but at least I can get detailed measurements for you.

From memory:
The thread is British, but I don't recall offhand if it's BA or BSF (or BSW). They're about 3/4" long (but 1" would work OK). Screwdriver slot on the outside end, inside end is turned down to minor diameter of the thread (ie smooth) for perhaps 3/16". Should be a felt collar that goes on there too. TRF claims they have the felt, under P/N 7H4429

PS, Welcome to the asylum. One tip: It's usually better to start a new thread with a new question, even when it's related to the original question. Usually, you'll get more responses that way.

PPS, Perhaps I'm mistaken about the British threads. TRF says that a JN2108 will work for the jam nut, but JN2108 is 5/16 UNF. I still don't think that is correct, but it has been a long time since I had to fiddle with those dang posts.

TRopic6
06-02-2015, 12:29 AM
Aloha A-46,

I dismantled an early 3A axle to get diff gears & 10' brake parts for my '59 stored in SC. I disassembled the back plates to sandblast and managed to keep the posts aside in a place I could get to them. Here are a few shots; pretty much as Randall remembers. Threads are regular 5/16 UNF; I ran a regular nut down the threads no problem. Maybe you could mill one out of an old bolt.

Jeff

sp53
06-02-2015, 09:52 AM
yeh my 10 inch are like Randall’s picture, and if I remember correctly the springs have to go that way or the full spring will rub on the wheel cylinder rubber. I am also pretty sure those are 9 inch in the picture or they hobbled 10 and 9 together.

Aradford46
06-03-2015, 06:21 PM
Thanks for the pictures and measurements. You made my day to say the least.

TRopic6
06-04-2015, 03:19 AM
I measured them all and they range from 1.228 & 1.248. Maybe they started life at 1 1/4" and wore down in service.

Jeff

TR3driver
06-04-2015, 03:39 AM
Could be! On the TR3A I had back in 1977, those pins were so out of adjustment that I would hear a mysterious "clunk" shortly after releasing the brake pedal. The shoes would walk out to match the drum when the brakes were applied, then snap back when they released. I can't prove it was wear, but it seems the most likely explanation. There was visible wear on the shoes as well.