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Jordan
08-18-2012, 12:50 PM
Hi,

here's the situation. Freshly rebuilt engine, rebuilt carburetors(cleaned-up and all).

engine cranks but doesn't start. Couple of back fire.
Things that has been checked : gas pump, wasn't put back correctly, then we made sure it was spurting petrol,
ingntion, distributor was 180 degrees off, put it back correctly and all the spark plugs sparks.
I have no Ideas were and what to look.

poolboy
08-18-2012, 01:13 PM
Correct firing order ? 1 5 3 6 2 4. Making sure the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire when #1 piston is at TDC and both valves are closed ?

Jordan
08-18-2012, 01:30 PM
yeah that's what I figured out with the manual shop when I flipped it 180 degrees.
the spark plug wires are the same way than before the rebuilt, I didn't took em out of the distributor and it was working before so I guess this not an issue.

poolboy
08-18-2012, 01:42 PM
When you say you flipped the distributor 180, does that mean you removed the distributor drive gear, rotated it 180 when you replaced it and then reinstalled the distributor with the rotor now pointing 180 from your initial install ?
https://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/poolboy_album/100_0348.jpg

RFLX
08-18-2012, 01:52 PM
correct. this is what I did because prior to this, the fire would be on the cylinder 180 degrees from number one when number one is at tdc on compression stroke.

can the distributor be so off ajustement that it just won't start?

poolboy
08-18-2012, 02:01 PM
Yeah to a certain extent. Try rotating it one way then another kind of slowly while someone is engaging the starter.

BTW, was the cam timing disturbed,cam removed ?

RFLX
08-18-2012, 02:03 PM
yep cam was removed, but I made certain that it was going back right with timing marks and all, triple checked.
distributor is kind of in the way it was before

poolboy
08-18-2012, 02:05 PM
There's 2 of you guys working on it today ?

RFLX
08-18-2012, 02:07 PM
yes in fact I started the thread on another computer

poolboy
08-18-2012, 02:10 PM
OK. When the #1 piston is at TDC and both valves close does your rotor point to about 7 o'clock ?
12 being the oil filler cap on the valve cover .

RFLX
08-18-2012, 02:11 PM
this right about 7 o clock

poolboy
08-18-2012, 02:13 PM
You sure you're getting spark ?

RFLX
08-18-2012, 02:14 PM
yes I checked all the park plugs I shoud check again?

poolboy
08-18-2012, 02:20 PM
At this point, yes and rotate the distributor a bit too while trying to start if you do have spark and it still doesn't start.
And if you are getting spark, you need to make sure that the carb float chambers have gas in them. Sometimes the float chamber needle valves get stuck closed and don't allow gas in.
If you pull off the fuel line and stick the extension tube of somethimg like WD40 or PB blaster into the inlet nipple you can blast the needle valve open. A little tapping to set up a vibration helps too.
Keep posting

RFLX
08-18-2012, 02:30 PM
ok I won't check the car back before a while but I'll keep this thread updated

Jordan
08-18-2012, 06:37 PM
ok I've checked it out, Everything seems right, for the fire.
but I've got spark from cylinder one and four dry while every others are wet.
I've tried every other things with the distributor without results

tdskip
08-18-2012, 06:44 PM
Have you looked at the plugs to see if they are firing outside of the engine? That is, seeing if you have spark without the plugs being installed?

poolboy
08-18-2012, 07:05 PM
Hard to figure the dry cylinders since cylinders 1, 2 and 3 are served by the front carb and the back 3 by the rear carb.
Have you at least tried rotating the distributor back and forth, yet... while your pal engages the starter?

mrv8q
08-18-2012, 08:05 PM
Have you looked at the plugs to see if they are firing outside of the engine? That is, seeing if you have spark without the plugs being installed?

New plugs?

RFLX
08-18-2012, 08:23 PM
all the plugs are working out of their holes so I don't see why I would change them.

We try several position of the distributor, nothing worked

there are quite a few position though. three ajustement, hard to find the right on

poolboy
08-18-2012, 08:39 PM
there are quite a few position though. three ajustement, hard to find the right on

What's that mean..I don't understand.

TR6BobNF
08-18-2012, 09:51 PM
Hate to be stating the most basic stuff but have you replaced the rotor button and distributor cap? Sometimes the simplest things can be the problem. I know that was a problem for me in the past.
Good luck,
Bob

LarryK
08-18-2012, 09:56 PM
Doesn't the cam gear have multiple indexes for timing? One side of gear advances timing the other is retarded and there is a common mark on both sides for TDC. Not a hard check if all else fails. I had this problem on a GT6 and the cam gear was indexed wrong. Took timing cover of and reset ran for another 60,000 miles before I sold it.

RFLX
08-19-2012, 12:05 AM
What's that mean..I don't understand.
I meant that there is alot of ways to ajust the timing

RFLX
08-19-2012, 12:06 AM
Doesn't the cam gear have multiple indexes for timing? One side of gear advances timing the other is retarded and there is a common mark on both sides for TDC. Not a hard check if all else fails. I had this problem on a GT6 and the cam gear was indexed wrong. Took timing cover of and reset ran for another 60,000 miles before I sold it.
tell memore about these mark, havn't found any on the distributor.

poolboy
08-19-2012, 09:38 AM
What's that mean..I don't understand.
I meant that there is alot of ways to ajust the timing

The conventional way to adjust the ignition timing is to loosen the clamp around the distributor and rotate the distributor. Clockwise advances the timing Counterclockwise retards it.

You seem to be avoiding the issue of rotating the distributor a bit in each direction while your buddy engages the starter..

RFLX
08-19-2012, 11:59 AM
no, we tried it also, quite a bit in fact.

Geo Hahn
08-19-2012, 12:50 PM
Been following this awhile, but when I first read this...


...gas pump, wasn't put back correctly, then we made sure it was spurting petrol, ingntion, distributor was 180 degrees off, put it back correctly...

... I suspected something else basic was done wrong during reassembly.

Possibly the simplest error would be one that moves the timing off by 180 -- this would leave you with fuel and spark yet no chance of hitting the correct timing by rotating the distributor a reasonable amount. One way this could occur is if #1 TDC was mis-read as being a compression stroke when in fact it was an exhaust stroke.

I would re-check the basics to see if #1 ignition corresponds with a compression stroke.

TR3driver
08-19-2012, 01:34 PM
I don't see any mention of valve lash ... have you re-checked that?

From the discussion, I think I'd go even farther back on basics. Start by double-checking that the TDC mark on the front pulley does, in fact, match when #1 is at TDC. Preferably by using a piston stop, but a straw or wood pencil down the #1 plug hole will do.

Now turn until #1 is at TDC on compression (both valves closed) and check to see that both valves on #6 are open by the same amount.

If that is good, then without moving the engine, verify that the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire, and static time the distributor so the points have just opened. Install and torque the plugs, then go around the distributor cap and make sure each plug wire is in the right place. (I know, you didn't change that, but you'd be surprised how often it turns out to be something simple that "wasn't changed".)

Now, disconnect the harness wire from the "+" terminal on the coil, and run a temporary jumper to it from the battery hot terminal. Give a good, healthy dose of jet spray carb cleaner down each carb throat and immediately crank the engine.

If it starts and dies (even just one or two firings that propel the engine forward), you've got a fuel delivery problem. If it won't fire at all, I would first check compression, then look some more at the ignition. For example, a bad condenser can limit spark voltage such that the plugs will appear to fire outside the engine, but not make it under compression. So try another condenser and rotor, JIC.

RFLX
08-19-2012, 04:56 PM
the wires are in the right order, that was doublechecked.

I don't understand when you say "Now, disconnect the harness wire from the "+" terminal on the coil, and run a temporary jumper to it from the battery hot terminal. " why? and which terminal would it be?

From time to time I would put gaz in the carb with a old tranny oil bottle.

To verify if I am at TDC, I have an old compression gauge cable with no valve, a simple tube that I blow in, if it holds pressure thanthe vales are closed, if not than I am at the wrong tdc.

I will definitly check into that next time I work on the car

TR3driver
08-19-2012, 07:06 PM
I don't understand when you say "Now, disconnect the harness wire from the "+" terminal on the coil, and run a temporary jumper to it from the battery hot terminal. " why? and which terminal would it be?[quote]
The reason is because there may be some problem with the ignition circuit. Bypassing the ignition switch, ballast resistor, etc. is a simple way to ensure that they are not the problem. It's only a test.

I'm afraid I don't understand your question about which terminal. I'm talking about a jumper from the "+" terminal on the battery (the one that is not grounded to the engine and/or body), to the "+" terminal on the coil (the one that does not connect to the distributor/points).
[quote]To verify if I am at TDC, I have an old compression gauge cable with no valve, a simple tube that I blow in, if it holds pressure thanthe vales are closed, if not than I am at the wrong tdc.
But that will only tell you if the valves are closed. I am talking about really finding the reference point where the piston is exactly at the top of the stroke. The point being that anything else you might look at (the valves, the timing mark on the front pulley, etc) may NOT be accurate.

It is actually a fairly common problem with the TR6 motor for the timing mark on the front pulley to be out of place. And since your engine has never run since it was assembled, I would be looking for a definite confirmation that the camshaft was timed to the crankshaft correctly. Even one tooth off can create an engine that is very hard to start and will not run properly. And the old marks are not always accurate (plus anyone can make a mistake).

Geo Hahn
08-19-2012, 07:54 PM
This is the piston stop I made (from an old spark plug) to determine TDC irrespective of pulley marks:

https://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc499/Ahwahnee18/TR4/PistonStop.jpg

Though as Randall notes you can at least get a feel for whether indicated TDC is close to actual by inserting something harmless in the plug hole.

LarryK
08-19-2012, 08:47 PM
I was mentioning the timing chain cam gear with the reversable gear plate with retard marks on one side and advance on the other. If you look at timing chain cam gear by holding it on edge you can see the difference in the marks to the center hole. Just an idea as I've seen shops slam them on wrong.

RFLX
08-20-2012, 01:45 AM
I am quite certain about the timing chain because of a couple of things I remember doing while getting through the timing,

1 - cam gear, behind it there were mark of the oil passages so it is back the way it was

2 - the crankshaft gear, it is on woodruff key.

3 - I remember trying the chain one tooth before and one tooth after the exact point of the timing marks to sure I wasn't wrong.

I will definitly look in a way to see if the timing mark on the cover is accurate, I guess a screwdriver through the spark plug hoe would be close enough

RFLX
08-21-2012, 08:54 PM
It works! Distributor issue

poolboy
08-21-2012, 09:21 PM
It works! Distributor issue
Congratulations but that's not good enough..how about a few more details ?

DNK
08-21-2012, 10:20 PM
Ground wire?

startech47
08-21-2012, 11:20 PM
Wire stack up on the points?

Healey_Z
08-22-2012, 12:39 AM
Ok, i'll guess; condenser

Brosky
08-22-2012, 08:22 AM
I'll bet it was the wire stack up.....grounded out

Gliderman8
08-22-2012, 09:44 AM
Early on in his posts, he did say he had spark... wonder what he found?

RFLX
08-22-2012, 10:48 PM
it's quite hard to explain without any pictures. As you can see with this picture right here, the hole is in such a way the distributore can enter in only one way.
https://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/poolboy_album/100_0348.jpg
so as it was left side right tomatch the timing sequence, it kept poppping out becausewe couldn't bolt it right.

https://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/ItemImages/Large/GRID006809.gif
the bracket was off and the hole thing went up by an inch, that's when I understood something was wrong. Plus it was fittng all nice and clean 189 degrees out and not nice at all on the right side.

so I repacked it all right, took a brake light and did myself a test lamp with some lying wires, statically ajusted the timing with the number 1 cylinder 10 degrees btdc and I started my first wire wherever that was. so my number 1 cylinder is were number 2 would be and so on .
but it actually works just fine

poolboy
08-23-2012, 09:00 AM
I hope that the distributor drive gear is still lined up with the oil pump drive shaft. If you don't have oil pressure when the engine is running it 's because of that. Trying to force a distributor down into the pedestal will just shove the oil puump drive shaft down into the pump..out of reach of the drive gear.
https://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/poolboy_album/100_0434.jpg
https://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/poolboy_album/dizzydrive.jpg

RFLX
08-23-2012, 10:45 AM
the oil pressure gauge is right in the middle. with the engne hot

poolboy
08-23-2012, 11:20 AM
Good. What's next for you guys ?

RFLX
08-24-2012, 06:05 PM
there is blow by on the fresh rebuilt, have to find out why

poolboy
08-24-2012, 06:10 PM
Do you have at least one of the carbs sucking on the valve cover vent ?

DNK
08-24-2012, 06:15 PM
Are you using the top end oiler hose
Are you using the Alloy Valve cover

Geo Hahn
08-24-2012, 06:57 PM
there is blow by on the fresh rebuilt, have to find out why

In my (admittedly limited) experience, that suggests the rings haven't yet seated.

Several techniques for assuring this happens during break-in (assuming the cylinder walls were suitably honed) and even a radical technique if all else fails (the Bon Ami treatment).

RFLX
08-27-2012, 07:41 PM
poolboy, no
DNK, I don't what hose you are talking about,
the valve cover is the original one
Geo Hahn, several ride were made with th car, with incredible white smoke at the tail pipe. smoke doesn't smell sweet at all and the prestone doesn't lower neither.v it is the same smoke previous the engine rebuilt

3798j
08-27-2012, 07:54 PM
...with incredible white smoke at the tail pipe....
Paging down, your one photo shows an upper engine oiling line: www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/865261/Re_TR6_engine_rebuilt#Post865261 (https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/865261/Re_TR6_engine_rebuilt#Post865261)
I've seen an engine do a good impression of a mosquito fogger with that same oiling line. Take it off and see if there's any difference - I'll wager the problem is that oiler.

TR3driver
08-27-2012, 08:34 PM
Paging down, your one photo shows an upper engine oiling line: www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/865261/Re_TR6_engine_rebuilt#Post865261 (https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/865261/Re_TR6_engine_rebuilt#Post865261)
I've seen an engine do a good impression of a mosquito fogger with that same oiling line. Take it off and see if there's any difference - I'll wager the problem is that oiler.

Which, BTW, is the same line Don was referring to.

Oh, and +1 on removing it and plugging the holes. As George Carlin would say, "It's bad for ya."

https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh260/TR3driver/Misc%20parts/BrokenTR3piston.jpg

poolboy
08-27-2012, 09:07 PM
The crankcase pressure needs a little help getting relieved..
TR6 had both carbs sucking on the valve cover. One should do it though; does for me.
https://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/poolboy_album/100_0482.jpg