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View Full Version : TR4/4A 1960 TR3A with tr4 motor and tranny?



gubba
03-09-2005, 12:53 PM
Hi folks..newbe here..Iam so excited to finally find a Triumph forum with so many informed people. Yippy!!!!I have a 1961 TR3A 20 year restoration car...yes still trying to get the parts I need to finish the darn thing. I need to ask a favor of the group,I need an opinion please. I have come across a 1960 TR3A with full ground up restoration "a real stunner" perfect lines, wires, and complete. The problem, or not, is that it has a TR4 engine and tranny. I would like to buy this car and I would like your thoughts on this matter. Best Regards evereyone

jsneddon
03-09-2005, 01:02 PM
If you want to drive it, it's a price you want to pay, and it isn't all rusty then I say go for it. Having a first gear syncro on a tr4 tranny is kind of handy in my opinion. (mine has a tr4 transmission and engine also).

It all depends on what you want at the end of the day. If you want to have fun with it and don't care about being the guy with the most concours points then go for it.

You wouldn't be buying a LBC anyway if you were looking at it as an intelligent investment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

gubba
03-09-2005, 01:16 PM
Thanks for the reply..as I am a newbe..what is LBC please?

jsneddon
03-09-2005, 01:41 PM
Little British Car.... Actually I slapped myself after I typed it and pressed send.

I kinda don't like the term but everyone around here seems to use it and it must have imbedded itself in my brain.

From this point onward they shall be referred to as simply British Cars.

Geo Hahn
03-09-2005, 02:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...If you want to have fun with it and don't care about being the guy with the most concours points then go for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if the TR4 engine has SUs then you could use a TR3 valve cover (cheap on eBay) and capillary tube temp gauge (not cheap on eBay) and it would take a real nosey person to figure out it was not a TR3 engine. I doubt that I could tell w/o examining the engine number. It would have a TR4 fan of course, but many '3s (mine included) have TR4 fans on them because they work a bit better.

An aside on LBC: ISTR that a few years back someone had some bricks from an original Standard Motors factory building that was destroyed during the war. The bricks were labeled LBC for the 'London Brick Company' though among the locals it was said that a more appropriate translation might have been "Let's Bomb Coventry".

jsneddon
03-09-2005, 03:26 PM
And the only other thing that might tip off the TR4 tranny is if it has the angly-type shift lever vs the stubby straight lever on a TR3. I have a spare transmission from a TR4 with the bent-looking lever - If I wanted to throw this in my 3 is it much of a job to change the lever ???

and for those of you playing at home:

ISTR means I Seem To Recall?

--Jim charter member of the PTSOOAUOIN. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(project to stamp out obscure abbreviations used on the internet)

sammyb
03-09-2005, 05:00 PM
Not a big deal at all to change the shift lever.

Pull off the carpet over your transmission tunnel, then unbolt the transmission tunnel cover (about 8 bolts, or two in mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) Unbolt the top of the transmission, and there you have it...heck, since I haven't looked at it in a while, you might be able to access the bolt for the lever without even removing the transmission top, but I don't think so.

Banjo
03-10-2005, 12:00 AM
The lever is held in by a bolt going all the way through the pivot, and a cap. Remove the bolt, there may be another short one on the base of the cap 90 deg. off of the other one so remove that too. then the cap comes off with a twist( but beware, it's a steel cap on an aluminium trans. Sometimes they don't want to come off) and viola! the shifter is in your hand. this all sticks through the tranny tunnel and is accessed by taking the rubber boot off of the shifter.
The 62 TR3B is a 3 with a 4 motor and trans. They are desirable both for performance and rareity. They are identified by a commission# prefix of"TCF"
Like everyone else said, that's a barely noticable swap to the untrained eye. so unless you are going for a concourse car or the seller wants too much, it's really an improved driving car.

gsalt57tr3
03-10-2005, 01:07 AM
I agree with Jim Sneddon.

If you want a driver, go for it. My '57 tr3 has a tr3a nosejob, due to an accident after such time it was easy to get a tr3 nose. Someday I might replace it. Its not that important to me.

This is the most fun car I have ever driven, and don't even want to take it near a concours (except the parking lot).

Glenn Salt
TL16434L

donbmw
03-10-2005, 01:18 AM
I agree with every that is if you like it drive it.
I also like the LBC the wife and I refer to our 59 TR3 as SB skinning butt.

gubba
03-10-2005, 11:59 AM
Thanks alot people for the replys. Now how much do you think fair value of this car would be?

jsneddon
03-10-2005, 12:39 PM
Quote:"Now how much do you think fair value of this car would be?"

geez... talk about opening a can of worms.

How much of a stunner is it? Is there any bondo? Have you poked around the floors and rockers and frame for rust?

Does it drive well? smoke? does the front end wobble all over the place?

Tough to say... people selling frame off restorations seem to price them with an emotional attatchment. I see all sorts of reported "fully restored" TR3's going anywhere from $10K up to $30K....

Maybe with a lot more information we could give you a better ballpark.

billspit
03-10-2005, 02:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks alot people for the replys. Now how much do you think fair value of this car would be?

[/ QUOTE ]

OUCH! personally I feel that TR-3s are vastly overpriced. Mainly cause when i sold mine in 1986 I didn't get squat for it and now they are bringing $15,000-25,000.

Price depends on condition, but parts cars are now running $3,000-4,000. You might could use the non-original enigne and trans as a barginning tool.

prb51
03-10-2005, 10:10 PM
This is a swag (serious wild ass guess). Home resto, frame off w/replaced nos panels. Rebuilt/fresh motor-trans-front end-steering box. New/newer brakes/clutch hydraulics. Good (no tears/sewing loss)interior - dash. All gauges work as intended. Newer tires 75%. Painted underside - no undercoat. Body/frame straight (measure center hub to center hub right and left side. Body panel fit good-gaps. Skim coat bondo ok, no serious bondo. Paint, minor scratches, one or two minor dings . Good top and sticks. 15 to 18K. I've described a very nice ready to go vehicle that would be classified a solid 3. The mis match motor would detract financially. Luck

Geo Hahn
03-10-2005, 10:28 PM
I don't know if TR3s are overpriced but they certainly seem to sell at a premium compared to other models in like condition. You see a lot of the 15-18K cars on eBay and such but I really think a patient buyer can do much better.

Rereading your original post it appears you have the experience to ID any serious problems -- barring those perhaps a value of 10K less the cost of anything that is needed is a fair point to work to. Using the non-original engine/gearbox as a bargaining point sounds reasonable.

Good luck, If the TR is a good one you'll soon forget what you'll paid for it.

BOXoROCKS
03-11-2005, 11:34 AM
Geo is right, the old saying goes.. you never pay to much...you just bought too soon.

gubba
03-11-2005, 12:09 PM
Thanks you fellas are great. I have spoken at lenth to the seller and I have gotten pictures of the restoration. This is a great looking car, no bondo, probably some skim coat, great lines, replaced floors, all new crome, new top toneau and side curtains, a very well done restoration. I have yet to test drive as the car is not completed as of yet. This will happen in about a month. This car will be about 20K CND or about 18K U.S. It still seems like a lot of money to me but Ive got the bug *****. I guess I can use my 61 as a parts car. It has the correct engine and tranny plus many new parts.

Geo Hahn
03-11-2005, 12:30 PM
You could buy a project car, do a full restoration and end up with more than $18K in it. You would have the satisfaction of doing much of it yourself -- but also a 2-year wait for the first drive.

We've all had/got that 'bug'... sorry, no known cure.

jsneddon
03-11-2005, 03:53 PM
just be sure to give it a really long test drive. I bought mine not running (with a very clean body) and it's amazing how much stuff is wrong that you'd never know about. Hopefully the front wheel won't fall off the first day you drive it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

gubba
08-10-2007, 11:48 AM
just be sure to give it a really long test drive. I bought mine not running (with a very clean body) and it's amazing how much stuff is wrong that you'd never know about. Hopefully the front wheel won't fall off the first day you drive it
_________________________
Jim Sneddon
'61 TR3
Oh My God...you fellows just are not going to believe this...I was just looking threw my old post and talk about dajavu...As I finally purchased this...what I found out to be a 1963 TR3b...I was driving home from Victoria..Taking the Ferry Bla Bla Bla...I get to Ladner and everything seems fine. As I live about 1 hour away I was looking forward to the drive home and it was a glorius sunny day. About 25 minutes into the drive I start to hear a clicking sound. I pull over and check all around and cannot see anything wrong so off I go. A little farther down the road the sound comes back so I pull over and check all the knock offs still nothing. I'm in Langley and at a very busy intersection. Light changes and I step on the gas and the front drivers wheel falls right off...BANG..I'm nose out in the intersection cars beeping line ups no tools and no jack. The Police show up and want to tow my LBC away and I am not so calm at this point. Thank god for this very nice fellow who used to own a TR3 for stopping to help me get the car back on the road. It would seem that there was no locktight used on the tapperd nuts that held the spline on to the hub and that they had loosend themselves and fallen off. This was the mysterious clicking sound. Anyway all is well and I was blowen away to read JSNEDDON's last post to me. There really is a TRIUMPH GOD...Best wishes to you all regards Gary

Andrew Mace
08-10-2007, 12:18 PM
Thanks you fellas are great. I have spoken at lenth to the seller and I have gotten pictures of the restoration. This is a great looking car...about 20K CND or about 18K U.S. It still seems like a lot of money to me but Ive got the bug [censored]. I guess I can use my 61 as a parts car. It has the correct engine and tranny plus many new parts. Just for fun, I'll open TWO cans of worms here:

1. The age-old philosophy of buying something already restored. Sure, it first it's arguably cheaper than what you'll spend doing a thorough restoration on a needy car. But unless you can view hundreds of clear photos of the restoration process and see piles of receipts, etc., how do you really know what was done (if it really was done)...and how well it was done?

There's a TR3A on eBay at the moment; buy it now price is somewhere north of $20k. Looks nice enough, but the pictures raise so many flags for me that I doubt I'd pay half that if I were interested. Shiny red on the outside, but apparently flat black under the hood and in the trunk, and iffy-looking, incorrect-pattern upholstery on the seats, etc., etc. Could be a nice driver, and 99% of those who see it casually would never know it wasn't supposed to be like that, but those "flaws" still take away significantly from the market value, IMO (sorry, in my opinion)!

2. I guess I can use my 61 as a parts car. Please don't take offense, but I'd hate to see that happen. There are still plenty of TRs out there that truly are worthy of parts car status. They're missing major and minor components, long ago gave up their tops and interiors to a rodent picnic, and have little or no solid sheet metal below the door handles and fender beading. I'll guess your '61 doesn't quite fit that description.

They're not making these cars any more, and I hate to see even one more "borderline" car disappear! Actually, cars similar to what I jokingly described above still occasionally command fair $$$ and make the trip back home to the UK, where they ARE restored....

Simon TR4a
08-10-2007, 01:48 PM
It's always rather difficult to reconcile the value estimates of the seller and the potential purchaser.
Personally I would regard the later, 4 synchro transmission and 86mm engine as pluses, (as I would later disc brakes on a TR2), but of course your view may be different.

I think most would agree that looking very carefully under the chassis and body for signs of rust or poor rust repairs is the most important factor. This is easier if there isn't a lot of undercoating tar, which can hide welded seams where rust has been cut out and patched. As you have described the car it sounds very good, but as Andy says, ask for photos and receipts to document what has been done. I also agree with him about the parts car; don't do it, sell it to offset the cost of the new car. Projects sell well in the summer or fall as we can visualize completing the car over the winter and having it on the road by spring. Good luck!
Simon.

Tomster
08-10-2007, 01:51 PM
just be sure to give it a really long test drive. <img

The way I figure it I've had my 4A IRS on a "really long test drive" for about 33 years now.
Ya gotta jump in the pool sometime and this sounds like as good an opportunity as any