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View Full Version : Wedge I might have let the smoke out [TR8]



JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 01:21 PM
I swear this car hates me.

Went to move the TR8. Battery is flat. Put my jumper on there, get it started, leave it idling for a few. Go to turn the car around and it dies. No electricity. Tried to put jumper back on, massive amount of sparks. Check cables, they're melt-plastic hot.

The neg battery cable is brand new. Well grounded. The positive cable is brand new. I can't see any shorts, but I haven't tried tearing out the carpet.

Traced the engine segment. Line on starter looks good, line to alternator looks good. Brown/Yello sense wire, however, not connected.

Is it possible that not having the sense attached could do this?? Or am I looking at yet another wonked alternator and or fused battery?


Galdangit! I pray the whole electrical system isn't fried.

George_H
04-26-2012, 01:49 PM
I have heard that the grommet at the firewall can be a problem on 8s. Somewhere to start anyway.

JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 01:52 PM
New grommet when I put the new line in. :frown:

TR3driver
04-26-2012, 02:24 PM
Is it possible that not having the sense attached could do this??
Possible, but unlikely I think. If so, it probably popped the diodes in the alternator, so at least the damage will be localized.

I would start by disconnecting a cable at the battery, and connect your jumper cables to the battery. If you get sparks and hot cables, the battery is toast & has to be replaced. But don't assume that is the only problem.

Next, I would try disconnecting the main wire to the alternator and see if you can power up the rest of the car with the jumper cables. If that's not it, try the starter next. Continue with the "divide and conquer" approach until you isolate the problem.

GBRandy
04-26-2012, 03:03 PM
Well if you got huge sparks when reconnecting the cables you have a dead short somewhere.

It was idling and all was fine....move it a fraction and 'zap' everything is dead and the wires are hot....right? Something must have shifted and shorted out when you moved it....

As Randall points out the battery could be the culprit. His other suggestions are spot on.

There is little than can cause that kind of excitement in the car.

I would check the positive connection block in the passenger footwell too.

tr8todd
04-26-2012, 05:18 PM
A tired starter will cause the cables to get hot, which could lead to a short in the main cable heading from the trunk to the starter. Check the main cable for continuity to ground. Make sure the battery clamps didn't short against the hold down. How come you are the only one having trouble with TR8s? These things are easy.

JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 05:24 PM
I swear this bloody car is cursed.

Battery tested good at Autozone, left it for a longer charge.

Neg cable = new
Pos cable = new
Starter = new gear reduction
Alternator = new from Vicky Brit.

Have checked where the pos. cable goes into the body from the back and out the body at the front.

I'm assuming at this stage that I borked the Alternator wiring when I converted back from a GM set up.

Will get the battery from autozone. Will test w/out alternator to see if I can get it going. then continue from there.

To add insult to injury I can't get the brakes work either. Rebuilt MC, rebuilt calipers, rebuilt wheel cylinders, new rubber brake lines. No brakes. Bleed and bleed, but no pressure. No leaks either.

I'm afraid I may have to take this car in to a shop. I haven't had to do that in over 20 years. It's embarrassing.

Darrell_Walker
04-26-2012, 05:42 PM
To add insult to injury I can't get the brakes work either. Rebuilt MC, rebuilt calipers, rebuilt wheel cylinders, new rubber brake lines. No brakes. Bleed and bleed, but no pressure. No leaks either.


Something gummed up in the pressure reducing valve?

JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 06:07 PM
If I remember correctly, if the Pressure valve was gummed up the brake fluid would not gravity feed through the system. Brakes worked just fine until the rear wheel cylinder started leaking.

Ok, I put the battery back in and disconnected the alternator. It's something in the alternator connections and/or the alternator itself. At least I've got the stupid car back in the driveway and not sitting in the street.

Darrell_Walker
04-26-2012, 06:12 PM
If I remember correctly, if the Pressure valve was gummed up the brake fluid would not gravity feed through the system. Brakes worked just fine until the rear wheel cylinder started leaking.


Oh, so you get fluid out when bleeding, but just can't get enough pressure when operating the brakes?

JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 06:20 PM
If I remember correctly, if the Pressure valve was gummed up the brake fluid would not gravity feed through the system. Brakes worked just fine until the rear wheel cylinder started leaking.


Oh, so you get fluid out when bleeding, but just can't get enough pressure when operating the brakes?

All four bleed very well. I get NO pedal at all.

I was informed by a local Triumph guy that there's some screw somewhere on the MC that I may need to fiddle with, but I haven't looked yet as I got sidetracked by the sparks.

Darrell_Walker
04-26-2012, 06:27 PM
I was informed by a local Triumph guy that there's some screw somewhere on the MC that I may need to fiddle with, but I haven't looked yet as I got sidetracked by the sparks.

There is the warning switch on the bottom of the master cylinder, once the still shuttle trips, you need to remove the switch to reset. Not sure if that affects pressure or not.

tr8todd
04-26-2012, 06:32 PM
You don't need the pressure valve anyway. Dividing the bias 50/50 still isn't enough to lock up the rears. On the race car, I would divide them up with tees and then put an adjustable prop valve on the front just to bias it down enough to get the rears to work. Those masters are notorious for difficulty bleeding. Start by cracking the lines at the master, and then at the prop valve, before heading to the calipers and finally to the rear. Pump three times then hold down and crack the lines. Repeat.

Dale
04-26-2012, 09:13 PM
Hi Jody!
Sorry your having trouble with the 8. I can't be much help, but I can encourage you to persevere. I know you are competent enough to sort it out.
Renee and I took the J-H out for a nice topless drive and ice cream Sunday. Days like that justify the hardship and frustration. This afternoon the wind was blowing such dirt I couldn't see a quarter mile. If it keeps up, Arizona will be charging us property tax. Hang in there.

JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 09:32 PM
You don't need the pressure valve anyway. Dividing the bias 50/50 still isn't enough to lock up the rears. On the race car, I would divide them up with tees and then put an adjustable prop valve on the front just to bias it down enough to get the rears to work. Those masters are notorious for difficulty bleeding. Start by cracking the lines at the master, and then at the prop valve, before heading to the calipers and finally to the rear. Pump three times then hold down and crack the lines. Repeat.

ugh. that sucks. So good old gravity bleeding won't cut it?

Oh, is it possible with this MC that SWMBO could have bottomed out the MC and that's why it's like this?

JodyFKerr
04-26-2012, 09:37 PM
Hi Jody!
Sorry your having trouble with the 8. I can't be much help, but I can encourage you to persevere. I know you are competent enough to sort it out.
Renee and I took the J-H out for a nice topless drive and ice cream Sunday. Days like that justify the hardship and frustration. This afternoon the wind was blowing such dirt I couldn't see a quarter mile. If it keeps up, Arizona will be charging us property tax. Hang in there.

Glad to hear the Jensen's treating you well. As to the AZ dust, you're welcome to it. It just makes me sneeze.

It's all a matter getting the correct order to things. First, restore my garage to ready state after having lost it to cabinet prep. The wife's to-do lists caught up with me and I've spent the last couple weeks staining and prepping cabinets/counter top for her laundry room.

Then get 8 back into garage. Sort electrics, then get some help from a club member to get these brakes sorted. Then I might be able to finally get this ridiculous car on the road.

Also am picking up SWMBO's new project this Saturday. '69 AH Sprite. Once I get her completely distracted with farting around with that I can go back to my projects.

I've convinced both her and the daughter that you have to hand sand the body to get all the paint off. That should give me plenty of peace for a while. It'll take 'em a couple days to get fed up with doing it that way.

JodyFKerr
05-04-2012, 08:47 PM
Ok, I finally had enough patience to go back and mess with the 8 tonight. Went back over every bit of wiring and then noticed this:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mZpFPENxRdY/T6SFH3Swj3I/AAAAAAAGlH4/kiK72pa_IoE/s640/IMG_20120504_183447.jpg

I guess I found how all the smoke was getting out. Turns out that when I swapped the proper alternator back in it shifted the wiring just a hair because of the differences in the mount point. Looks like I need to remake some wiring.

Then I started going back over the brakes. No leaks anywhere, then just for the sake of ruling everything out I tried this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pAILACjnUY8/T6SFSkaowHI/AAAAAAAGlIA/l2C7r5RGMQI/s640/IMG_20120504_183454.jpg

It turns out that either the threads on the reservoir are no good, or the cap is no good. After doing this I immediately got brake pressure. This sorta works for now, but I'm going to need to come up with a better solution long term.

So, in theory, I might be able to make this sucker drive.....

tr8todd
05-04-2012, 09:25 PM
Not sure how or why the tissue made a difference. Doesn't the cap need to breath as the fluid moves in and out of the reservoir? I pulled my master, and prop valve out this week so I could paint the engine bay in my grey TR8. While they were out I put a nice coat of gloss black on them, and changed the rusty nuts and bolts out for some stainless. Sometime this weekend I'll snare one of the girls and have them help me bleed the braking and clutch systems. Hope it goes smoothly.

JodyFKerr
05-04-2012, 11:26 PM
Ok, got it running. then the squealing started.

Did some research. This is the pulley on my water pump:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_Y5uwukB0z4/T6Srd5Hs6OI/AAAAAAAGlIQ/ctaESmNIUvY/s640/IMG_20120504_211204.jpg

Every reference I can find is for a double pulley. Is this the wrong pulley?

tr8todd
05-05-2012, 06:28 AM
Stock it is a 2 piece pulley. The outer pulley is for the belt that goes from the crank to the water pump to the alternator. The inner(removable) pulley acts as an idler pulley for either the ac or the air pump. Can't remember which, as I don't have either on my cars. If you need one, I should have all of the ones I removed. If you change the pump out to a Buick pump, you will have to change the pulley to a 4 bolt anyway. Buick pumps are cheap and at the auto parts store now. The GM pumps use a better impeller than stock Rover, so if you opt to have the rover rebuilt locally, you can just use Buick componants.

Darrell_Walker
05-05-2012, 08:54 AM
Is you car FI? Your pulley looks just like mine. FI cars don't have an air pump.

JodyFKerr
05-05-2012, 10:52 AM
It's a FI car, so it may be a FI pulley. The dilemma is that it appears to be out of plane with the alternator and the crank pulley. It's almost like it's missing a rubber vibration dampener or something, though I don't see one in the catalog.

I am presently trying to decide if I try shimming it out a hair. It's the only pulley that I have any chance of moving.

Darrell_Walker
05-05-2012, 11:04 AM
It's a FI car, so it may be a FI pulley. The dilemma is that it appears to be out of plane with the alternator and the crank pulley. It's almost like it's missing a rubber vibration dampener or something, though I don't see one in the catalog.

I am presently trying to decide if I try shimming it out a hair. It's the only pulley that I have any chance of moving.

Mine was mounted directly to the water pump, nothing in-between.

Any idea if you have the original water pump? I think there are Buick ones that fit the opening, but have a different pulley offset. But I though those were way off, not just a little.

JodyFKerr
05-05-2012, 11:15 AM
The water pump is a NOS british leyland one.

DNK
05-06-2012, 06:17 PM
Ted sent this pic to me a while ago Jody,
https://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o316/donkelly23/TR8/TedsPulleys.jpg

JodyFKerr
05-06-2012, 11:03 PM
Coolio, thanks. After talking to a number of different folks, I am firmly aware that the offset between the water pulley pump and the alternator shouldn't be there.

I'm also done messing with this beast. While I was looking for a pound of C-4 my lovely wife said, why don't you just take it in to the shop, then either they can fix it, or you won't be the only one scratching your head and swearing.

As much as I'd like to play with explosives, I think I shall swallow my pride and take the wife's advice.

Jody