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12-22-2004, 10:17 AM
OK, this seems to be a very lively topic of discussion on some other boards that I frequent., so I thought Iíd throw it out there to see what this crowd thinks. The topic is the new Pontiac GTO, either last years model or the yet to come out 05. Iíd especially like to hear what owners of the original 60ís/70ís GTO think of the modern iteration, if there are any here.

My personal opinion is probably the same as that shared by many people, fantastic drivetrain and suspension wrapped in a boring and uninspired body. I have met the occasional person though that thinks the car is pretty good looking the way it is, I believe understated was the term. I like some of what has been coming out of GM these days, the Corvette is impressive and has been since the C5. I especially like the Cadillacs, the styling has been edgy and aggressive without being in your face annoying. However, I think they went way to conservative with the GTO, to the point of boredom. I certainly didnít want to see something as over the top as a factory rice rocket, like the Evo or the WRX STi (although I like both of those cars for their performance), but I think they could have found a happy middle ground. Something that looked muscular and refined at the same time, and, while not being completely retro like the 05 Mustang, at least had some small design cues that remind us of the original cars.

Bruce Bowker
12-22-2004, 10:23 AM
New GTO? Boring looking although the original was just a Le Mans body. Still like the original better. BUT I do think the new Mustang looks great although yet to see a real one.

Bruce

aeronca65t
12-22-2004, 11:17 AM
GTOs?

Yeah I love them...new and old.
The original was a neat rorty endurance racer that was barely streetable. Penske and Phill Hill had great results in these cars.
The later 288 Turbo-GTO, built in the mid-80s was a hot little number too, but not with the racing heritage.

https://next2.web-cars.com/gto_nu_images/62-sebring-3387_a_s.jpg

Oh wait.......you were talking about those *GM* cars. Ahh.....OK, they have big lunky engines and are probably good for pulling boat trailers and such.

Seriously, for the record, if it's a Holden, they should call it a Holden (just my 2c).

Anyway, if you're interested in reading a review of the original Car & Driver "GTO vs GTO" article, it's here:

https://www.web-cars.com/gto/c-d_pf-gto.php

PC
12-22-2004, 12:17 PM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

and thanks for the link.


PC.

78Z
12-22-2004, 12:54 PM
I quite like the new GTO. Sure the styling doesn't scream GTO but its not that horribly bland. If they with its origional name intact I don't think we'd hear as much complaining. With it selling so slow its a heck of a performance deal. Too bad Canada doesn't get them.

SteveL
12-22-2004, 01:02 PM
It's a **** SITE better looking than anything
thats come out of Pontiac for about 30 years,
and the wife likes it, and who am I to argue
with SWMBO...

SteveL

mailbox
12-22-2004, 01:34 PM
I think it's stealthy in a plain jane kinda way. I mean look at it. You wouldn't think too much of it at a stop light until it blew your doors off. YEA, I WANT ONE!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

sammyb
12-22-2004, 01:51 PM
By the way, just a note regarding the famous GTO VS. GTO article -- the authors never tested a Ferrari, plus the '64 GTO sent for testing was actually a ringer -- it had a NASCAR-spec 421ci engine. Jim Wangers admitted to it years later.

Bret
12-22-2004, 02:51 PM
The New Pontiac GTO is ok I guess. While Iíve always been a fan of the platform I think I like the GTO much better than the Holdon badged version sold down under.

Mater-a-fact I always thought that the new face lift package (shown in last Novemberís Car and Driver) looks kindía like what I thought the next generation RWD Dodge Intrepid was going to look like. But that was before my hopes where dashed with the introduction of the New ďtubbyĒ Magnum wagon.

But while it might take some time before it does reaches any sort of cult status like the ďoriginalĒ muscle car did. IMHO the new goat isnít near what John Delorean first envisioned when he first started tinkering with the Tempest. It (the GTO) was in fact according to the designer himself - a tribute to the Ferrari GTO.

PC
12-22-2004, 03:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just a note regarding the famous GTO VS. GTO article -- the authors never tested a Ferrari, plus the '64 GTO sent for testing was actually a ringer -- it had a NASCAR-spec 421ci engine. Jim Wangers admitted to it years later.

[/ QUOTE ]True for the original '64 article. But twenty years later they got both a Ferrari and a Pontiac to drive and they put Dan "the Man" Gurney behind the wheel.


PC. https://next2.web-cars.com/gto_nu_images/car_drvr-84_a.jpg

sunbeammadd
12-22-2004, 03:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Seriously, for the record, if it's a Holden, they should call it a Holden (just my 2c).


[/ QUOTE ]

Or they could call it a Vauxhall as they do in Britain. Then it would be on-topic for BCF. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

https://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/brand.jhtml?brand=Monaro&vehicleType=Car

But then since it's really an Opel Omega with two doors left off maybe it should be an Opel!

sammyb
12-22-2004, 06:48 PM
Yeah, but the real news of that issue was the review of the Maserati Biturbo!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I had totally forgotten about that article. I started taking Car and Driver in '85, and I have decades of Road and Track. I'll have to read that article online.

The fact of the matter is that the GTO and GTO are vastly different cars. The Ferrari is a road racer, and the Pontiac is a sedan-based passenger car meant to go fast in a straight line. I've heard of guys road racing early GTOs, but they were never that competitive -- too nose heavy. The brakes were also pretty horrible, and would fade rapidly. (And that was Delorean's tribute to Ferrari -- outdated brakes.)


As for my worthless opinion on the new GTO -- I'm hot and cold on it. I think the styling is pretty, but pretty for 1995. The interior is a little too boy-racer with the color contrasting.

It's fairly expensive for the overall package, certainly when compared to a Mustang, which is certainly a good competitor.

From the marketing end, I probably would have waited to develop something more original, rather than a rebadged Holden. I think for "the triumphant return" it was diminished by being perceived as just a rebadge.

Lutz has always been a fan of the rebadge, and I've never understood why. Yes, we get pretty darn good cars out of it (like the XR4Ti, which was certainly one of the best performers of the 80s,) but from a biz standpoint, the moves usually have been pretty underwhelming.

I guess, the bottom line is that the GTO is neat, but I'd never buy one. It's not a sports car, and it's not a luxury car...it's a hot GT...but competing in price with some more luxurious, hot, luxurious GTs.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just a note regarding the famous GTO VS. GTO article -- the authors never tested a Ferrari, plus the '64 GTO sent for testing was actually a ringer -- it had a NASCAR-spec 421ci engine. Jim Wangers admitted to it years later.

[/ QUOTE ]True for the original '64 article. But twenty years later they got both a Ferrari and a Pontiac to drive and they put Dan "the Man" Gurney behind the wheel.


PC. https://next2.web-cars.com/gto_nu_images/car_drvr-84_a.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Bugeye58
12-24-2004, 05:09 AM
Be careful what you wish for regarding the styling of the "GTO". It seems Pontiac has been guilty in the past of calling JC Whitney, and telling them to send "one of everything" regarding plastic add on doo-dads.
Jeff

Bret
12-24-2004, 07:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Be careful what you wish for regarding the styling of the "GTO". It seems Pontiac has been guilty in the past of calling JC Whitney, and telling them to send "one of everything" regarding plastic add on doo-dads.
Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

True enough. But with Pontiacís current line-up I am happy to see the removal of all the tacky body skirt cladding so prevalent on their products for the last couple of decades.

Merry Christmas everyone!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

MGA Steve
12-24-2004, 07:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's fairly expensive for the overall package, certainly when compared to a Mustang, which is certainly a good competitor.

[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif you said something nice about the new Mustang! Just kidding, Sammy.

Car & Driver's January issue has an article comparing the new 300-HP Mustang GT to the new 400-HP GTO and the GTO finished a close second. I showed a photo of the noses of the two cars side-by-side with the caption covered to my wife. When I asked her to pick the one she liked the looks of best, she picked the GTO. When she heard it had 400-HP, she liked it even better! Of course, she drives a 2005 Subaru Legacy GT with a 250-HP turbo boxer four, 5-speed auto with button shifter on the steering wheel, and full-time AWD, so she likes fast cars. And 400-HP trumps 300-HP any day of the week in her book!/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif

William
12-24-2004, 09:52 AM
I think the new GTO will make a superb used car buy in another three years or so. It's a big, comfy GT, and one that is most likely to be bought by older, more affluent owners who won't beat the snot out of them. If, in a few years time I actually have a need for back seats and luggage space, a used GTO will be on my list.

As for the looks of the thing-it's a pretty clean design, all things considered. It's not like the original '64 cars were anything special to look at compared to any other midsidzed American two door of the time. No real special addons or anything, just the "GTO" badges and different wheel trims.

-Wm.

12-24-2004, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Car & Driver's January issue has an article comparing the new 300-HP Mustang GT to the new 400-HP GTO and the GTO finished a close second.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that article has spurred eighty zillion pages of flame wars and nearly a few knock down drag out fights on other forums that I go on (mostly Mustang forums with GTO owners coming in and starting trouble). Not that I'm a fan of C&D (I've been a R&T reader for over 20 years) but I've got to agree with their evaluations. Sure, the GTO beats the Stang in the raw performance numbers, but the Stang gets the styling kudos, inside and out, and the bang for your buck factor, the GTO costs nearly 8 grand more. Also, I don't know how they generate their numbers, they got a 1/4 mile time of 13.8@103. I've seen a lot of guys online post time slips of stock 05 Stangs pulling 13.5 and 13.4 @ anywhere from 101 to 103, which puts it solidly in the range of the GTO. And with less than half the price difference of the cars (4K) of mods made to the Stang, it will be well into the high 12's. Oh well, I'm biased since I'm hopefully getting one this summer, and as someone else said, it ain't all about the speed.

Steve, your wife drives the Legacy GT? Lucky man. That car was on my short list a few months ago, when I was still planning on getting a sedan. Absolutely the best car in that price range, what a hoot to drive. I had an extensive test drive in one and loved every minute of it, it flat out flys.

MGA Steve
12-28-2004, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Steve, your wife drives the Legacy GT? Lucky man. That car was on my short list a few months ago, when I was still planning on getting a sedan. Absolutely the best car in that price range, what a hoot to drive. I had an extensive test drive in one and loved every minute of it, it flat out flys.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not so lucky since I never get to drive it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

But if you think your test drive in the GT was fun, you should try my son's WRX STi! What a car--my wife got it to 85 in just seconds in 3rd gear with four people in the car and still had 3 gears left!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

A magazine article a few months ago compared the STi to a Mustang GT and the STi came out on top. So, it looks like someone now needs to write a magazine article comparing the 400-HP GTO sedan to the 300-HP WRX STi sedan to see which comes out on top in the performance categories. The GTO wins hands down in luxury, stereo--none in the STi, and interior cabin noise, but loses in 6-speed manual transmission availability (and size of the rear wing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif).

RVMAN
01-01-2005, 01:50 PM
In the '84 rematch on the strip between THE GTO and GM's version, I'm sure the pontiac had to be worn out to only pull a 15 on the quarter mile! This was not a good test, as I owned a '66 PMD Tempest SPRINT(6cyl/OHC/quadrajet carb/susp.pkg/rally wheels etc) and it clocked many low 15 sec runs in the 1/4 mile...hard to see how a well tuned tri-carb V8 couldn't even beat my little 6 banger in this test.

aeronca65t
01-02-2005, 07:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just a note regarding the famous GTO VS. GTO article -- the authors never tested a Ferrari, plus the '64 GTO sent for testing was actually a ringer -- it had a NASCAR-spec 421ci engine. Jim Wangers admitted to it years later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Brock Yates was on SpeedTV cable channel last night and he mentioned the "ringer" Pontiac used in the original article (he was doing the Barrett-Jackson car auction and a '64 Pontiac GTO was on the block at the time).
That original article "hoooked" me on Car & Driver (although I had been reading it on and off since it was "Sports Car Illustrated"). Back then, they also did an excellent tractor-trailer truck test at Bridgehampton and a great "best" sports car test around '65 (MGB, TR4, ALFA, Alpine, FIAT 124).
Nowadays, Car & Driver is awful (in my opinion) and I won't even pick it up in a Doctor's office. I've been reading R&T just as long....still a great magazine.

01-02-2005, 12:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Nowadays, Car & Driver is awful (in my opinion) and I won't even pick it up in a Doctor's office. I've been reading R&T just as long....still a great magazine.


[/ QUOTE ]
Man, I couldn't agree more. My best friend reads C&D, and I read R&T. We usually swap every month when we're done, I laugh my butt off every time I get that rag from him. I love the letters section, they just print all the ones that people wrote that didn't like a particular article, then flame them in their response. Boy thats great journalism.