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LexTR3
12-08-2010, 05:40 PM
One mistake I made when fixing up my 58TR3 was to install high intensity Xenon headlights. True, there are many advantages to these bright lights, but -- frankly -- I don't like the light they give out (greenish!) and they blind oncoming drivers. So, for a number of reasons, I am going to bite the bullet and have them removed and replaced with good quality standard lights. (I'll give the Xenon lights to a friend as a Christmas present!)

But I also want to install good quality fog driving lights to aid with night driving. What is the consensus on the best and most appropriate fog driving lights for the TR3?

DNK
12-08-2010, 05:42 PM
Super Oscars
https://www.rallyevent.be/2007/car/Curinckx-Meeus.jpg

LexTR3
12-08-2010, 05:45 PM
Sorry... I am clueless about these. What is a "Super Oscar"?

DNK
12-08-2010, 05:51 PM
That's what the "Google" is for.

From one of the Best
Daniel Stern (https://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/products.html)

tdskip
12-08-2010, 06:33 PM
Super Oscars
https://www.rallyevent.be/2007/car/Curinckx-Meeus.jpg

Nice! I like it the car, and love seeing it be used.

trrdster2000
12-08-2010, 07:18 PM
Lextr3, keep an eye on these, they are period correct.

https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160513972973&ssPageNam e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Wayne

vivdownunder
12-08-2010, 07:32 PM
Moss Motors has a good range of aftermarket headlamps for H4 bulbs and fog/driving lamps that look period original, but with modern candlepower.

Cibie has a good range too, but whatever the choice, consider using a dedicated fuse and relay.

If fitting really high powered spotlights such as aircraft landing lights, an alternator conversion will probably be needed.

Viv.

kodanja
12-08-2010, 07:41 PM
These Lucas light dont do much but they look kinda cool'

https://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/KODANJA7/DSC07730.jpg

TR4nut
12-08-2010, 07:47 PM
Not sure about the performance but for the period look I would go with Lucas 576 lamps, here is one example:
Lucas style lamps (https://cgi.ebay.com/Lucas-SFT576-Chrome-Fog-light-Fog-lamp-Triumph-MG-/190474228150?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM& hash=item2c592611b6)

LexTR3
12-09-2010, 10:28 AM
Many thanks. That puts some "light" on the subject!

vagt6
12-09-2010, 10:54 AM
Lex, for what it's worth, fog lights do little to brighten up the road far ahead for night driving. Properly used, fog lamps should be aimed to the sides of the road, just ahead of the car. They're really designed for use only in low visibility weather conditions to illuminate the sides of the road immediately in front of the car.

Driving lamps are what you need. The standard 45-55W period-correct driving lamps really light up the road far ahead. Driving lamps are supposed to be aimed level with your high beams and wired to be used only with low beams. And, they WILL blind oncoming drivers far ahead of your car. They provide amazing improvement for night driving on these dark VA back roads. In fact, during deer rut season I wouldn't drive at night without them.

I have the period-correct "WIPAC" driving lamps on my Midget (about $100 from Mini Mania). WIPACs were most notably found on Mini Coopers and look fine on most LBCs. They come with nice plastic covers. I also considered the reproduction Lucas SLR's (from Moss) but the price was a bit steep at $90 each, which includes no covers (very useful if a rock hits the lamp).

Let us know . . . :thumbsup:

TR3driver
12-09-2010, 12:44 PM
FWIW, you can also get H4 bulbs with higher power only on the high beams, and without that space cadet glow. I had some 100/55 watt bulbs that would really light up the road on high beam (and blind anyone looking my way), but look pretty much like regular headlights (except for the sharp cutoff and e-code illumination to the right) on low beam.

Here's a comparison of 55 watt H4 to a standard tungsten bulb:

https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh260/TR3driver/DSCF0008dimmed.jpg

Andrew Mace
12-09-2010, 02:25 PM
...Driving lamps are supposed to be aimed level with your high beams and wired to be used only with low beams....Have I been wrong all these years? That doesn't make sense to me for driving lights. Fog lights and low beams, yes, but driving lights? :confuse:

Don_R
12-09-2010, 02:31 PM
If I remember the PA inspection code correctly...driving lights are supposed to come on with HIGH beams only and Fogs with low beams...

TR3driver
12-09-2010, 05:16 PM
Have I been wrong all these years?
No, I'm sure Mark just mis-typed. Driving lights should only be used in combination with high beam headlights. In many states, it is specifically forbidden to have them on with low beams. For example, CA VC 24402 states "Driving lamps are lamps designed for supplementing the upper beam from headlamps and may not be lighted with the lower beam."

But AFAIK most do not require that the switches be arranged that way, only that you observe the rules while operating on a public highway.

M_Pied_Lourd
12-09-2010, 05:58 PM
FWIW, May be different in Canada, but my Ford Explorer works like this.

Lights on, low beam, driving lights on.

Lights on, high beam, driving lights automatically go off.

Cheers,
M. Pied Lourd

TR6BILL
12-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Super Oscars are the coolest. However, you will need a separate, heavy-duty circuit to run them. And, deep pockets. They ain't cheap. But, they are period correct. You might even need a separate generator to power them up.. Had them on my TR3 years ago. Daylight!

swift6
12-09-2010, 08:07 PM
FWIW, May be different in Canada, but my Ford Explorer works like this.

Lights on, low beam, driving lights on.

Lights on, high beam, driving lights automatically go off.

Cheers,
M. Pied Lourd

Are they actual "Driving Lights" though or are they "Accessory Lights"? A lot of SUV's have accessory lights that are on with the regular low beams and/or also with the Daylight running lamps. They are not, in function, like the driving lights that throw light so much further down the road than the main beams doon their own.

DNK
12-09-2010, 08:09 PM
What they are ,are, PITA lights. Wish all SUV's would turn em off.

vagt6
12-10-2010, 10:34 AM
Have I been wrong all these years?
No, I'm sure Mark just mis-typed. Driving lights should only be used in combination with high beam headlights. In many states, it is specifically forbidden to have them on with low beams. For example, CA VC 24402 states "Driving lamps are lamps designed for supplementing the upper beam from headlamps and may not be lighted with the lower beam."

But AFAIK most do not require that the switches be arranged that way, only that you observe the rules while operating on a public highway.


VA Code doesn't specify how you use auxillary lamps but does dictate that you can't use more than 4 lights any any given time.

My '05 MINI had driving lamps (dealer installed) which did not work with high beams, only low beams. I've installed them on a couple other vehicles as well, always wired to work only with the low beam. Wiring the drivng laimps to work only with low beams gives the best of both worlds: you get great closeup illumination (with your low beam headlights), and your distance illumination comes from the driving lamps (which should be better than your high beams). In fact, if your driving lamps are wired to work only with high beams I think this may, on very dark roads, create an "illumination gap" near the vehicle (e.g., the area normally illuninated by low beams).

Wire your drving lamps either way, or simply wire them on a separate circuit, but I think using them in combo with your low beam headlights renders a greater field of illumination and poses less blinding risk to other drivers.


YMMV.

TR3driver
12-10-2010, 11:49 AM
VA Code doesn't specify how you use auxillary lamps
I'm no lawyer, but it looks to me like the VA code prohibits adding driving lights at all:

<span style="font-style: italic"> 46.2-1020. Other permissible lights.

Any motor vehicle may be equipped with fog lights, not more than two of which can be illuminated at any time, <span style="font-weight: bold">one or two auxiliary driving lights<span style="text-decoration: underline"> if so equipped by the manufacturer</span></span>, two daytime running lights, two side lights of not more than six candlepower, an interior light or lights of not more than 15 candlepower each, and signal lights. </span>

vagt6
12-10-2010, 01:48 PM
Well, I must confess: I'm guilty as charged (and so are lotsa other folks with aftermarket lamps)!! :yesnod:

LexTR3
12-10-2010, 04:06 PM
Wow.... my pea-brain is confused. I thought headlights were "driving lights." Are they separate from the standard headlights? Do they supplement them in some way?

The fellow who works on my car when something is beyond me -- which is most of the time -- has said the same thing that Mark Brown has said: fog lights don't give you much more light going down the road.

My dilemma is that I now have very bright Xenon lights on the car which (a) blind drivers approaching me, (b) appear to give off an unnatural light, (c) are not in character with the car. I made a mistake in having them installed in the car. (Interestingly, the Xenon lights also have standard lights or filaments on the low beam, so it's bright white when Xenons are on and yellow-white when they are off.) Very confusing....

TR3driver
12-10-2010, 04:55 PM
Wow.... my pea-brain is confused. I thought headlights were "driving lights." Are they separate from the standard headlights? Do they supplement them in some way?Well, I suppose the proper name is "auxilliary driving lights", but most people just call the "driving lights". Take a look at the photos above to see some pretty examples. Typically, the period setup was for one fog light and one driving light, with a switch that would select one or the other. As noted, a "fog light" should light only the ground immediately in front and to the sides of the car; and is intended for use only at very low speeds (when the fog blocks any farther view of the road). A "driving light" provides a much more concentrated beam, pointed straight down the road, with the intention of lighting objects as far away as possible, and is intended for use only when there are no other drivers within range.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:](Interestingly, the Xenon lights also have standard lights or filaments on the low beam, so it's bright white when Xenons are on and yellow-white when they are off.) Very confusing.... [/QUOTE]
Hmm, that sounds like you have HID (High Intensity Discharge) bulbs for high beam and halogen bulbs for low beam. It is very confusing, because HID bulbs are typically filled with xenon gas; plus some halogen bulbs are filled with Xenon gas (in addition to the halogen); plus there are some bulbs around that are called 'Xenon' but actually have no xenon in them at all, just a colored filter so they look blue. (Much like a Dodge Neon has no neon gas in it either).

It's also worth noting, that even Xenon HID bulbs do not necessarily emit that funny blue light. They are available in a variety of "color temperatures" but it seems that most people opt for the higher color temperatures in the mistaken belief that they are "brighter" or "whiter". Typically they don't actually emit as much light as the lower color bulbs; and the excess blue component actually makes it harder to see.

Anyway, just as a suggestion, you might consider replacing your HID bulbs (if that is what they are) with bulbs in the 4000K-4500K range. That would give you a color similar to the halogen low beams. Then get the low beams aimed so they don't blind anyone. And don't use your high beams when there is anyone to be blinded by them!

LexTR3
12-10-2010, 05:16 PM
Randall,

Yes, you are right: there are definitely HID bulbs for high beams and possibly halogen for low beam.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that the person who installed the lights, and he has installed many on sports cars, wired it so the high beams light on the speedometer comes on when the low beams are on (halogen?) and the high beam light is off when the high beams (Xenon) are on! I asked about this and he said it was "standard procedure" in his shop.

I will ask at the shop about replacing the HID bulbs with bulbs in the 4000K-4500K range, and do as you suggest.

Do you have any opinion about the "appropriateness" of using HID bulbs in a 58TR3 or any other vintage roadster? I want to keep the car "authentic," but I also want to be safe on the road. It's a fine balancing act.

TR3driver
12-10-2010, 05:39 PM
Do you have any opinion about the "appropriateness" of using HID bulbs in a 58TR3

Yes, I do.

<span style="font-size: 12pt">"It's your car, it should please you."</span>

In other words, it is a personal decision. IMO there is room in the hobby for all types, from the people who obsess over whether a particular bolt head 'should' be plated with cadmium or zinc; to those who drop in a Rover V8.

And I don't even see anything in the TRA judging standards about headlight bulbs, as long as they have the proper rims.

I've been toying with the idea of trying a HID conversion myself, now that they have H4 replacements that implement both low and high beam. I don't get out on dark roads at night very much, but when I do, it's really nice to be able to drive the speed limit without outrunning the headlights. And since the HID bulbs actually draw less power, it would let me keep going longer with the original generator.

Ok, I'll admit it, it would also be nice to be able to flash my headlights and have those SUV drivers notice! :devilgrin:

LexTR3
12-10-2010, 08:36 PM
Radall,

No doubt about it. The HID lights get attention. You'll be the brightest car on the road. I, too, try to avoid dark roads at night, but when I find myself rushing home at the end of a day of driving, it is nice to have the entire road ahead of me lighted up. And you are absolutely right about HID bulbs drawing less power. Less power, more light = what's not to like? I guess I think they are just too bright and "sparkly." I must admit now that when I get into my '58 TR3A, I am often transported back to 1962 and my '58 TR3A back then. I guess I'm just trying to hold on to that old feeling... ha, ha.

You are right that it's a personal decision. But I also feel a "responsibility" to the car to keep it as authentic as possible. But, whenever I begin to lose sleep over these issues, I remember what you once wrote me: "Ed, it's not the Space Shuttle. It's just a car." I laugh out loud whenever I recall those words of wisdom.

Many thanks.

DNK
12-10-2010, 08:39 PM
Ed- My 2 cents, If your gonna change back to regular H4's. I would check out the Dan Stern site I posted and put 55/100 in your 3. I would suggest relays for those for your car. That way you don't blind the on coming but when you want the brights. Boy have you got brights.

LexTR3
12-10-2010, 08:44 PM
Don,

I don't know what I am going to do. My objection to the HID lights is perhaps purely "aesthetic," and that may not be the way to think about them. I put them in because someone convinced me that they would give me the amount of light I would need and draw less power. I may just bite the bullet and keep them in. In fact, all this may be purely theoretical because I avoid driving at night whever possible.

But I will check out the site, and thank you for the tip.

DNK
12-10-2010, 09:08 PM
Don't worry about the power. The 55's are fine for around town and such.
And they don't bug other drivers

justin_mercier
12-10-2010, 09:31 PM
Not for everyone, but I just ordered a pair of the AutoLoc Tri Bar headlights for my TR6. They look better than the sylvania h6024xv lamps that I have been using, and use replaceable H4 bulbs.

https://www.thehoffmangroup.com/autoloc/product.lasso?prodinc=headlights

TRMark
12-10-2010, 09:51 PM
I converted my TR4 to an alternator, installed a relay and heavier wiring in the headlight circuit and use Sylvania Silverstars. Much more light than the originals. I often drive at night in forested areas and like the rest of the country, we are over run with deer.

LexTR3
12-11-2010, 08:33 AM
I'm still confused - or in a "fog."

I know what fog lights are.

I know what headlights are (daytime running lights? High beam and low beam).

But what are auxiliary driving lights?

vagt6
12-11-2010, 09:10 AM
Lex, auxiliary lamps, generally speaking, are lights that are in addition to your factory headlights: fog lamps; spot lamps, driving lamps, etc.

Fog lamps = auxiliary lamps intended for for low visibility, bad weather driving conditions to illuminiate the sides or the road, close-up;

Driving lamps = auxiliary lamps inteneded to provide long-distance illumination. These can include driving lamps; pencil beam lamps, etc.

Spotlights are auxiliary lamps that include the type you might see on cop cars, often mounted near the A-pillar with a hand device inside the cockpit for moving the lamp.

That's how I understand it . . . :thumbsup:

LexTR3
12-11-2010, 09:18 AM
Mark,

Thanks. That makes it clear to me. So some of those nice lights I see attached to the front of cars are not fog lights but "driving lights" that supplement the headlights. And sometimes there is a fog light/driving light combination.

Probably with the HID lights I currently have on the car, I wouldn't need the driving lights unless I removed the HID lights and installed standard seal beam lights. That's how it seems to me.

vagt6
12-11-2010, 10:39 AM
Lex, also, fog lamps are best mounted down low under the bumper, often in the molded plastic surround in modern cars.

Driving lamps are generally best mounted a bit higher, in line with headlights or even higher (as in Bubba trucks with the rows of lamps on the roof).

Plus, to make things more confusing, here at BCF we tend to mix British nomenclature with American which can make one's head explode: fender/wing; light/lamp; muffler/silencer, hood/bonnet, etc., etc. :crazyeyes:

Crazy, but fun! :yesnod:

TR3driver
12-11-2010, 10:53 AM
Probably with the HID lights I currently have on the car, I wouldn't need the driving lights unless I removed the HID lights and installed standard seal beam lights.
:iagree:

Twosheds
12-11-2010, 11:19 AM
But, whenever I begin to lose sleep over these issues, I remember what you once wrote me: "Ed, it's not the Space Shuttle. It's just a car." I laugh out loud whenever I recall those words of wisdom.

Many thanks.



I wrote you that, not The Randall. While The Randall contributes so much he was awarded for it, and rightly so, I can contribute so little, I crave credit for what mite I actually can contribute!

You're welcome!

DrEntropy
12-11-2010, 11:25 AM
:lol:

My 2p:

All my personal cars have Cibie or Lucas eqiupment. H4's (55/100) in the headlamps, the auxiliarys are one fog (fluted lens, disperses the light low and WIDE) and one pencil beam (non-fluted lens, can illuminate WELL forward). Switched, fused and relay'd. Only concession to "conformity" is they can only be powered when the main lights are (running lights or headlamps) on. i.e. when tail-lamps are on. Separate switch, two position standard Lucas headlamp unit. First position powers only the fog lamp, second position powers both.
<span style="font-style: italic">
EDIT: Pencil beam on driver's side, fog on passenger's.</span>

TR3driver
12-11-2010, 11:48 AM
I wrote you that, not The Randall.
:iagree:

At least it wasn't me.

LexTR3
12-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Dr. Herrera,

Please pardon my senior lapse in attributing the statement to Randall and not to you. Your "mite" was mighty amusing.

Thank you for the correction!

Dr. Entrophy,

Very useful. I will suggest this to the guy who works on my car -- the same person who installed the HID lights.

DNK
12-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Dr. Herrera :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Twosheds
12-11-2010, 04:48 PM
Dr. Herrera :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ywe. I was awarded my doctorate in Teeyarthriology by the highly-regarded Chief Boffin of the world-renowned High Speed Triumph Research Laboratory.

LexTR3
12-12-2010, 07:59 AM
Dr. Herrera,

That works for me!

DNK
12-12-2010, 02:28 PM
Dr. Herrera,That works for me!

Only because Dr. John was already taken