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Marvin Gruber
02-15-2010, 10:56 AM
Found a TR4A with strange commission number. Its 1CTC 59908 L0, I actually remember seeing one like that years ago. What does the 1 before the CTC mean. Car is a solid axle, late model 4A from what I can tell. Aren't those a low production number car.

Marv

3798j
02-15-2010, 11:05 AM
I think solid axle 4A's had only the letters "CT", while those with IRS were "CTC".

Andrew Mace
02-15-2010, 11:40 AM
I believe the leading "1" indicates that the car was originally assembled in Belgium as opposed to "factory built" in Coventry, England. Odd that the car is a solid axle, though!?

Roger007
02-15-2010, 11:43 AM
As far as I know the #1 is indicating that the car was built in Belgium rather than coventry.

Lou Metelko
02-15-2010, 04:19 PM
The TR4A began in January of 1965 with the numerical 50001 and ended with 78684 in July of 1967. As earlier stated the Independent Rear Suspension (IRS) had a prefix CTC with the solid axle a CT. I would guess the 59908 sequence number would be about an October 1965 production. That guess is based on my 4A IRS (CTC64139L) has a BMIHT birth date of December 30, 1965. Interesting to note that Triumph built over half of the total 4A production in 1965 which is further proof that by 1967 the ole tractor engine was at its end.

Lou Metelko
Auburn, Indiana

Cabrioman
02-15-2010, 04:55 PM
Where is the commission number located please?

sail
02-15-2010, 06:16 PM
Commission # on 4 & 4A is on the left firewall shelf by the wiper motor. Body number is on opposite side.

HerronScott
02-15-2010, 08:15 PM
Cabrioman,

You are back to getting the hood/bonnet open!

Scott

Marvin Gruber
02-15-2010, 10:44 PM
This car has the later IRS type frame but with solid axle and leaf springs. Also has the double lead exhaust manifold. Engine number is CT 78XXX E, looks to be the big valve high port head engine.

Interesting the 1 means a Belgium assembled car. Guess I should buy it.

Marv

HerronScott
02-16-2010, 12:36 AM
Marvin,

Really interesting on the commission number being CTC but with a solid axle. Is the commission plate the original?

Regarding the double lead exhaust manifold, as far as I know all TR4A's had those.

Scott

Marvin Gruber
02-16-2010, 08:21 AM
Scott,
Your question about the commission number being correct, that could be the telltale to the car. I believe it has been changed. Pop pivets holding the plate do look different. I believe (from some other resource material) that the car is a late 67 car. According to VTR, SU HS6's were installed in 66 and the engine has a 78k number puts it as a late 67. I read somehwere else that the solid axle was done in a limited run for folks who didn't want the IRS. Car looks rough but has good floors and rockers. If I buy it, I could send engine number off and get a BHMT cert on it.

Marv

Andrew Mace
02-16-2010, 08:24 AM
Is there a body number present? If original, it and the engine number both should be more or less in the same range as the commission number (but not the same, of course).

Marvin Gruber
02-16-2010, 05:42 PM
Will check on that tomorrow and let you know.

Marv

HerronScott
02-16-2010, 10:38 PM
Marv,

Looking at the TR4A's registered in the TR Registry, there were solid axles throughout the life of the TR4A. The last TR4A registered is a solid axle (CT78657L) in fact. I think I've seen some references that use 25% as a rough number that were produced with solid axles versus IRS and it was for the US market to please distributors here which felt they could sell them better with a cheaper price.

Both of my TR4A's have SU carbs and it sounds like the one has had a later engine installed since the engine and body number should be close to the commission number. My 1967 TR4A is original and has the following:

Commmission number: CTC 72159LO
Body number: 71922CT
Engine number: 72497E

It's possible you have a car that was put together from 2 separate cars - 1 IRS and 1 solid axle and they titled it under the IRS commission number but used the solid axle frame/suspension/body.

Good rocker panels and floors always sound good though! What's the rest of the car like?

Scott

Marvin Gruber
02-17-2010, 09:30 AM
Scott,

This is an Alabama car, no paperwork other than bill of sale required. I am headed out to look the car over again. Will report findings.

Just to clarify in my head, any solid axle TR4a will will only have CT (instead of CTC)for the commission number? I do remember reading that the extra "C" meant that the car was IRS but also had it in my head that all TR4As were CTC.

Marv

Andrew Mace
02-17-2010, 09:40 AM
"...any solid axle TR4a will will only have CT (instead of CTC) for the commission number? <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Yes!</span></span> I do remember reading that the extra "C" meant that the car was IRS <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Yes!</span></span> but also had it in my head that all TR4As were CTC <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">No!</span></span>."

sail
02-17-2010, 10:47 AM
From Triumph TR by Piggott.

CinneaghTR
02-17-2010, 02:01 PM
I'll add to clarify that the frames are the same for either IRS or solid axle car. The suspension and diff/axle bits are different.

Andrew Mace
02-17-2010, 04:10 PM
I'll add to clarify that the frames are the same for either IRS or solid axle car. The suspension and diff/axle bits are different. Doesn't the "live axle" frame lack the bridge piece for the diff. mount, etc.?

HerronScott
02-17-2010, 10:22 PM
I'll add to clarify that the frames are the same for either IRS or solid axle car. The suspension and diff/axle bits are different. Doesn't the "live axle" frame lack the bridge piece for the diff. mount, etc.?

I've never seen a solid axle TR4A frame but that was my understanding as well. You would certainly need the mounting posts for the IRS differential out of the way.

Scott

Marvin Gruber
02-17-2010, 11:02 PM
Looked the car over again today. Body number plate gone, rivets there but no plate. The 1CTC plate looks to have been added. Engine number is CT76380E. With the later style radiator and all the other things. All most forgot, it has the wood rim sports wheel, so I'm guessing its a 66 or early 67 car. Think if I buy it, I will send off for the BHM certificate. Tub is solid, engine is free, everything is there.

Marv

Marvin Gruber
02-17-2010, 11:07 PM
Forgot to mention frame condition, it looks very good, no rust or damage. It does not have the bridge piece for the IRS diff. Wonder how much difference there is in driving and handling. Like the idea of not having all the extra U joints to deal with.

Marv

CinneaghTR
02-18-2010, 10:22 AM
Doesn't the "live axle" frame lack the bridge piece for the diff. mount, etc.?

Yes, the frame layout is the same with the different diff/rear suspension bits (the bridge piece included...). My car's DPO wanted to convert it to IRS and that was the kicker for him and probably why he never finished the car. I've never driven an IRS car, but I like the solid axle a lot.

Andrew Mace
02-18-2010, 11:07 AM
Looked the car over again today. Body number plate gone, rivets there but no plate. The 1CTC plate looks to have been added. Engine number is CT76380E.
Possibly there wasn't a body number, if it was indeed a Belgian-assembled car? Assuming the commission number is correct, that does seem to be a later replacement engine.

All most forgot, it has the wood rim sports wheel...
I don't recall those ever being anything but a dealer or otherwise aftermarket accessory?

Think if I buy it, I will send off for the BHM certificate.Hopefully there will be a record of this presumably "CKD" car; sometimes those records are spotty at best and may not have full details such as you'd get with a Coventry-built car.

Marvin Gruber
02-18-2010, 12:36 PM
Thanks Andy.

There was a body plate. I could see a little piece of
Aluminum under one rivet. Isn't the wood rimmed aluminum sports wheel a sought after option item? If I can get it to crank, I'm going to buy it.

Marv

Andrew Mace
02-18-2010, 01:32 PM
Scott,
Your question about the commission number being correct, that could be the telltale to the car. I believe it has been changed. Pop pivets holding the plate do look different.... (As I re-read this thread, I wonder) does it look like a typical commission number plate, and is all the information "filled in" on it, such as paint and trim codes, etc.?

CinneaghTR
02-19-2010, 08:51 AM
Here's a fun 4A article from Popular Mechanics that talks about the rear ends...

https://books.google.com/books?id=P-MDAAA...;q=&amp;f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=P-MDAAAAMBAJ&amp;lpg=PA24&amp;dq=triumph%20tr4a&amp;lr=&amp;pg=PA24# v=onepage&amp;q=&amp;f=false)

LBCs_since_1988
02-19-2010, 09:21 AM
Doesn't the "live axle" frame lack the bridge piece for the diff. mount, etc.?

Yes, the frame layout is the same with the different diff/rear suspension bits (the bridge piece included...). My car's DPO wanted to convert it to IRS and that was the kicker for him and probably why he never finished the car. I've never driven an IRS car, but I like the solid axle a lot.

There is NO bridge piece on the '4A solid rear axle (other than the rear shock mount). You'd never be able to mount coil springs without the front differential/coil spring bridge.

CinneaghTR
02-19-2010, 10:54 AM
Doesn't the "live axle" frame lack the bridge piece for the diff. mount, etc.?

Yes, the frame layout is the same with the DIFFERENCE BEING THE diff/rear suspension bits (the bridge piece included...).

Okay, edited for clarity since that is what I meant. Good save.