PDA

View Full Version : TR4/4A Interesting/Nice TR4 on the Bay



glemon
07-08-2009, 09:57 PM
Ebay TR 4 Number 160347441634 Nice car certainly.

No overriders, but seller has them to go with the car, other than being a nice looking car (no financial interest) it shows the original bill of sale and loan note on the car.

Price and options, sold August 19, 1965--seems to definitely be an original TR4 alright (not a 4A), but interesting that sold in August 65 it was sold as a 66 model, I know they could play more fast and loose with model years back then, but I thought they generally only marked it as a later year model if it was old stock they couldn't move, but who knows, maybe by August they were worried it would be labeled an "end of model year" car if they sold it as a '65 with people wanting to wait for the 66s or dicker down the price, so they painted '66 on the window with some bar soap and sold it that way.

Neat to see the original paperwork in any case.

DNK
07-08-2009, 10:14 PM
TR4 (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_rdc=1&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop .ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907. m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D160347441634%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&item=160347441634&viewitem=)

tomshobby
07-08-2009, 10:19 PM
Probably have this wrong but I seem to remember something about American cars being registered with their vin number when they came off the assembly line. And foreign cars were not having their vin number registered until they were sold.

TR4nut
07-08-2009, 10:37 PM
Nice pics, and interesting bill of sale. I'll be interested to see what this goes for. I have mixed thoughts on the car - pics look great, but what I see is a very clean but very definitely restored car - not original. Don't want to sound too negative on it, as it does look like a nice car. But if the intent is to make it 'the best in the world' as the ebay description starts out, I'd make sure the over-riders were installed. Also, the color is nice, but what was it originally?

bgbassplyr
07-08-2009, 10:50 PM
Not judging wherther or not everything was done correctly, but that is one nice looking 4.

bgbassplyr
07-08-2009, 10:53 PM
According to Piggott, the number makes it a '64.

newmexTR3
07-09-2009, 02:40 AM
So clean! I can't imagine my car being that immaculate. I wonder what it'll sell for.

TR6BILL
07-09-2009, 04:04 AM
It would never win a concours show. No <span style="font-style: italic">patina.</span> A friend restored his '67 to that level and trailed it to the VTR Nationals/Summer Party a few years back. Never even got an honorable mention. The judges' comment: No patina.

CinneaghTR
07-09-2009, 07:49 AM
It would never win a concours show. No <span style="font-style: italic">patina.</span> A friend restored his '67 to that level and trailed it to the VTR Nationals/Summer Party a few years back. Never even got an honorable mention. The judges' comment: No patina.

Well, congratulate your friend for me anyway. It is nice to hear folks are putting the time and effort into 4s and 4As.

TR_Jim
07-09-2009, 07:57 AM
A beautiful car, for sure. Interesting that it has the same temp gauge that tdskip was asking about in an earlier post.

Andrew Mace
07-09-2009, 08:44 AM
But if the intent is to make it 'the best in the world' as the ebay description starts out, I'd make sure the over-riders were installed.Agreed! I'd also have made sure the entire commission number had been stamped on the obviously repro plate (they seem to have left off the last "L")!
Also, the color is nice, but what was it originally?Cactus Green is a legitimate Triumph color of the period, but I don't think it was routinely used on TR4s or, for that matter, other Triumphs bound for the US.

I'd really like to have seen the car before the over-restoration; I've a feeling it wasn't really all that bad and it would have been almost as valuable and much more enjoyable as a car! :devilgrin:

Brosky
07-09-2009, 11:18 AM
This is not the first time around eBay for that particular car. I think it sold last year or the year before in the low $20's. Or maybe it was pulled due to not meeting minimum reserve.

angelfj1
07-09-2009, 11:48 AM
It would never win a concours show. No <span style="font-style: italic">patina.</span> A friend restored his '67 to that level and trailed it to the VTR Nationals/Summer Party a few years back. Never even got an honorable mention. The judges' comment: No patina.

Bill: If this is an accurate story, IMO the judges had no basis for deducting points for " lack of patina". TRA and VTR have different judging standards, but I have never heard this explanation. Both organization have a similar philosophy that a "perfect" restoration (concours) would be a car that appeared as it did on the show room floor, but definately not a car that is over-restored. Doesn't VTR usually have a daily driver category? Is it possible that your friend had entered his car as a daily driver rather than concours?

TR4nut
07-09-2009, 12:02 PM
I looked at the pics again, and I'd say this car is arguably better than the one that sold on Barrett Jackson a couple of years ago at a mind boggling price. So value-wise, I have no idea where this one can go - but maybe Barrett Jackson is a better venue for it to get top dollar?

tdskip
07-09-2009, 12:02 PM
https://www.cascadiaclassic.com/tr4c.jpg

tdskip
07-09-2009, 12:02 PM
A beautiful car, for sure. Interesting that it has the same temp gauge that tdskip was asking about in an earlier post.


Worth $20k right there!

vagt6
07-09-2009, 12:14 PM
Wow, what a dreamy car!

Interesting to see what it goes for, OR, if the reserve is met. I'll be he's lookin' for a blue-sky price!

mikecyc72usa
07-09-2009, 12:34 PM
At the VTR South Central Regionals in Marble Falls, TX this past spring, the concours judges used the philosophy of "the King/Queen of England called Triumph, and ordered a car. The standard that car would be prepared to is what we are judging by." Patina was nowhere to be found. I have many pics from the event, as my friend and I were the official photographers. I can post the link if you like.

trfourtune
07-09-2009, 02:11 PM
WOW,
I don't care what any of you purists think, that is a great car! 99% of tr4's will never be as good as that one. Buy it and drive it. If i had known what i know now about tr4's when i bought my project car, I would buy that one in an instant if i had the cash (and it were a different colour).
Rob

TR4nut
07-09-2009, 02:22 PM
Actually, I think that color works very well on the car, I'm surprised it wasn't used widely for TR4s - I think it would look good on a 3 as well.

Andrew Mace
07-09-2009, 03:47 PM
Actually, I think that color works very well on the car, I'm surprised it wasn't used widely for TR4s...So am I! It's one of the relatively few Standard-Triumph colors that was both a paint and trim color. It was often used as a trim color paired with Conifer Green paint on Heralds, and a good number of '65-'67 vintage Herald convertibles in that combination made their way to the States.

<span style="font-style: italic">Update:</span> I checked Piggott's latest originality book as well as some factory TR4 literature, and I find no reference to use of Cactus Green. But I'm aware that pretty much any color could have been had if you or your dealer knew the right "buttons to push" or people to talk to.

I still say it looks great and should have been available on the TR4...and possibly the Spitfire as well!

tdskip
07-09-2009, 10:38 PM
I found this picture useful, maybe others here with pending sill repair will as well.

https://www.cascadiaclassic.com/tr4metal5.jpg

tdskip
07-09-2009, 11:15 PM
OK, I'll admit it. I've been drooling over this car all night. I mean, just look at it!


https://www.cascadiaclassic.com/tr42.jpg

CinneaghTR
07-10-2009, 08:35 AM
I downloaded every photo for later reference.

kodanja
07-10-2009, 09:11 AM
OK, I'll admit it. I've been drooling over this car all night. I mean, just look at it!


https://www.cascadiaclassic.com/tr42.jpg




ME WANT NOW!!!!!! :banana:

trfourtune
07-10-2009, 09:13 AM
Hey, so did I ! All of them.
great photo reference. That is exactly what i am/will be doing with my sills as well.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I did notice that there are no inner dust shields on the front brakes (or at least it looks that way).
R

TR4nut
07-10-2009, 09:46 AM
Ditto. Those are great shots. I think the dust shields are there, the restorer used some gray/silver on some of the parts so they blend in pretty well with the rotors.

And despite my earlier comment on the overriders, if this car were mine I'm not sure I'd be in a big hurry to put them back on, that front shot certainly has clean lines. But I would put in an overdrive as soon as possible, because I'd want to take that car all over the place.

trfourtune
07-10-2009, 11:58 AM
Ya, no overdrive, that's really the only possible negative i can see.
R

NickMorgan
07-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Yes, the TR4 overriders are rather large. I prefer those on the 4A.
Although I admire this car a lot, it is just too clean for me. I wouldn't be able to enjoy driving it as I would be listening out for stones chipping the paint on the underside, or worrying about not getting it wet. Where could you park it without worrying and imagine having a car like that if you didn't win the concourse!
I think it needs a good undercoating and then to be driven across the USA and back again. After that it would appeal to me more!

TRDejaVu
07-10-2009, 06:31 PM
When I took my fenders and doors down to bare metal I noticed the 2-tone appearance that is shown in the shot of the left rear fender standing on its own. I had previously asked, but maybe I didn't explain it well enough; is that some sort of protective treatment or what? If so, why just a partial dipping?

Andrew Mace
07-10-2009, 07:03 PM
...and I saw the same "dip" line on a 1960 TR3A I chemically stripped many years ago. Presumably it was some sort of lower body "rustproofing" (as it were back in those days). ISTR reading something about this somewhere, but goodness knows where (or even if)!

TR4nut
07-10-2009, 08:03 PM
I think maybe in Piggott's book they show a line of TR4s getting dipped. At least I've seen it somewhere. Its a pretty neat shot.

bgbassplyr
07-10-2009, 08:45 PM
Maybe the tank wasn't deep enough to dip the whole body.

4aKen
07-10-2009, 11:03 PM
This TR does have alot of wow. Be interesting to see the color in bright sunshine....dirty white? I downloaded some pictures of the metal work for future reference.
Speaking of the TR4 overiders, in my youth I was not a fan, but now I am. In the early pages of this forum someone referred to the Tr4 as a Rodster, the 4a as a Roadster...

Here are a couple I've heard in my 40+ years of TR ownership. Michelotti's front end treatment of the TR4 was an attempt to show "flexed muscle".
Another, that the term "on song" in regards to the automobile is a TR term.
Where is Andy when you need him?

glemon
07-11-2009, 07:31 AM
Someone asked a ways back if Barret Jackson was a better venue to get top dollar than E-bay, not an expert, but think it is. Certainly you don't see too many Big Healeys going for over $60,000 or so on E-bay, but pretty routine at B-J, as well as the $90,000 or whatever it was TR4.

Still if you are just a regular Joe you will probably get more from an E-bay sale than the local paper or club newsletter.

Mickey Richaud
07-11-2009, 07:40 AM
When I sold my TR3 on ebay, I got $15.5K. Did it make money? Of course not. But for me, this is a hobby, and I was ready to move on. At times, when I see what similar cars (or even cars that aren't close to mine) are fetching, I get a little perturbed. But the couple that bought it are enjoying it, as I did - maybe even more. And I used the proceeds to pay for the TR8 that as of now will not leave my stable.

The Barrett-Jackson experience is not reality. But then, in addition to what one pays for the car, there's a buyer's fee; and a seller's fee as well. Plus, you have to get the car there.

My take is that, for me at least, this is not a profit generating enterprise. And I would imagine even after several restorations, financially I'm still way ahead of my bass-fishing and 18-hole-cart-driving buddies!

bgbassplyr
07-12-2009, 02:34 PM
So I used one of the pix for screen back ground to inspire me. Wife just saw it and loved it. Wants to know if ours will look like that and can I hurry up and finish it?

Yes, dear.

Sarastro
07-12-2009, 06:58 PM
...Although I admire this car a lot, it is just too clean for me. I wouldn't be able to enjoy driving it as I would be listening out for stones chipping the paint on the underside, or worrying about not getting it wet. Where could you park it without worrying and imagine having a car like that if you didn't win the concourse!
I think it needs a good undercoating and then to be driven across the USA and back again. After that it would appeal to me more!

Yes, that was exactly my reaction when I saw it. I'd love to have it, but as soon as I started driving it, it would drop in value by $10K and I don't think I could deal with that.

I've had my eye out for a TR4, but I'd prefer a nice, well-broken-in one. At the same time, I have to admit that the car in question is exquisite.

TR4nut
07-12-2009, 07:40 PM
That was my first reaction too - but looking at it I can appreciate that there is some fine work there - I have a tough time saying this is wrong, that is wrong, etc. When I saw the TR4 that sold at Barrett Jackson, I could flip off about a dozen things that were wrong without working too hard.

But if I'm going to nitpick, this fancy green one is missing the tonneau snaps on the dash! That has to lower the price by at least $10!

Randy

Andrew Mace
07-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Eventually, it all boils down to a spectacular <span style="font-style: italic">restored</span> TR4 (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;_rdc=1&amp;ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop .ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907. m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D160347441634%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&amp;item=160347441634&amp;viewitem=) ...or a spectacular <span style="font-style: italic">original</span> TR4 (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TRUE-SURVIVOR-HERITAGE-REPORT-20K-ACTUAL-MILES_W0QQitemZ280363247483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_C ars_Trucks?hash=item4146f3a77b&amp;_trksid=p4506.c0.m2 45&amp;_trkparms=65%3A10|39%3A1)?

Of course, as they say: "They're only original once" (although you can keep restoring virtually forever....)!

TR4nut
07-12-2009, 08:33 PM
Eventually, it all boils down to a spectacular <span style="font-style: italic">restored</span> TR4 (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;_rdc=1&amp;ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop .ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907. m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D160347441634%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&amp;item=160347441634&amp;viewitem=) ...or a spectacular <span style="font-style: italic">original</span> TR4 (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TRUE-SURVIVOR-HERITAGE-REPORT-20K-ACTUAL-MILES_W0QQitemZ280363247483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_C ars_Trucks?hash=item4146f3a77b&amp;_trksid=p4506.c0.m2 45&amp;_trkparms=65%3A10|39%3A1)?


Didn't see that one either. Pretty nice! More pics to download, but they weren't as generous as that fancy green one.

bgbassplyr
07-12-2009, 10:56 PM
OK, so whats wrong.
Mismatched horns?
Wrong radiator duct? for a 4A, I think.
Blue taped wiring harness? Misplaced location (routing) between headlights?
Top hose clamps?

If we're gonna pick nits, lets get to nit picking.

Still a beautiful car that I wish I could afford and had the time and talent to emulate.

TR4nut
07-13-2009, 06:49 AM
I've never seen a radiator duct fit tight on a TR4 - was it originally? Both of those example cars have about the same fit on the duct.

Andrew Mace
07-13-2009, 08:51 AM
OK, so whats wrong.... Blue taped wiring harness? Not a problem; those were "alternative fitments" on TR4s.

TR4nut
07-13-2009, 02:53 PM
Blue harnesses I think we pretty standard for TR4's, at least around 64 timeframe. The new harnesses look a little lighter blue to me, but that could just be that patina thing Bill mentioned.

bgbassplyr
07-15-2009, 02:02 PM
Closed at $32,100, reserve not met.

rustbucket
07-15-2009, 02:03 PM
Wonder what the reserve was? What did he expect?

vagt6
07-15-2009, 02:11 PM
The Hagerty book "Cars That Matter" says a concours TR-4 price is about $40,000-ish, give or take a few thou. That's the tip-top concours trailer queen price.

That's a mighty stratospheric price, if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, I think TR-4s are wonderful but even if I won the lottery I wouldn't pay that kinda money for any TR-4.

Guys with too much money, methinks . . . :yesnod:

Sarastro
07-15-2009, 05:06 PM
I wonder if anyone told the seller that there's a recession on.

I'm amazed that it went so high, given the economy. That confirms it's a nice car, if you couldn't tell by looking at it, but I do thing the guy made a big mistake by setting reserve so high. $32K seems like a pretty good price, to me.

Lou Metelko
07-15-2009, 05:58 PM
My opinion says that the owner was right in passing on the $32,1 top bid. Missed by a good 20% but we will see that car pass through again. That 32 bid was probably close to what he had in it. That color was never a stock TR4 color so that may have thrown off the true Concours crazies.

Lou Metelko
Auburn, Indiana

4aKen
07-15-2009, 06:22 PM
Still think if you can get 70k++ for an AH...a like TR should make 40k.

bgbassplyr
07-15-2009, 07:58 PM
I bet he was looking for B-J price, say 50 large. See if it relists.

MadRiver
07-16-2009, 11:45 AM
The "patina" comment really bothered me. If a car has undergone an excellent restoration to original condition, then it should win a prize. Full stop. The standard should be as they were when the rolled off the production line. When shopping for a new car, I don't believe I look for a patina, and I don't believe that the nice folks at Standard Triumph sought to add a patina to the cars when they were new.

Now, all that said, we should all be honest with ourselves. When our cars were new, they were manufactured largely hand-built by companies that were constantly out of funds and were a few short years away from being nationalized. Indeed, in my conversations with John MacCartney last weekend, he said straight out that the technology they were using in the 1960s was already decades old and outdated and they did so because they simply couldn't afford anything else.

My point is that most contemporary restorations will, by their nature, result in a car that is somewhat better than when the cars were new. Panel fit on 1960s British roadsters was notoriously bad. Most of us obsess about gaps in a way that nobody grabbing press-fit panels on a production line would ever care about or have the time to concern themselves with. The pictures I have of my parents in and around their new 1960 Austin Healey 3000 clearly show this, and my father -- who was a restorer then as he is now -- recalls this very clearly. Panel fit was lousy.

Plus, these cars were painted on a production line. They weren't treated to even the basic care that we would all expect from a normal paint job for a car we're redoing. It gets painted. We sand, we compound, we buff, we repaint. We let the paint cure and shrink for weeks, and we do it all over again. I can assure you there wasn't a large volume manufacturer at the time here or in the UK that did that. Think about what we usually do to a wood dash. I'm not talking about a replacement dash. Just what we all usually do when we pull out the original, sand the old finish off of it, and then re-coat it. I doubt any of us would be satisfied with what it looked like when new. We'll make it just a bit shinier.

Plus, none of us, including concours judges, would probably be satisfied with a car that was actually in like-new condition. My Lotus Elise came with so many minor defects from new -- not even addressing the mechanical stuff -- that I doubt will be added or reproduced when these cars are restored in four decades' time. Adhesive oozing from the bottom of the plastic sills where they are bonded over the fiberglass shell. Ill-fitting interior panels. A passenger door that didn't line up well with the latch. I can't wait to tell a concours judge in that time (if I'm still alive): "I swear, it was oozing that black glue the day I bought it! I spent months searching for original spec Hethel ooze!"

None of this is in any way intended to be criticism. It's just the nature of taking something old and spiffing it up, even if we're going for originality. In the end, you usually end up with something that is just a bit prettier than when it was new, especially since we're working on one car that we love and adore, and the nice folks at Triumph (or BMC, Rootes, Jaguar, Lotus, etc.) were cranking them out in larger numbers.

Just my two cents.

PeterK
07-16-2009, 11:55 AM
My only dissatisfaction with this car is that the hardware was blasted then clear coated. After blasting, it looks gray, not natural. And he didn't take measures to restore the original finish, just clear coated.

Other than that, it reminds me of my own project TR4A that has been in my workshop since 1997 and sat in someone elses shop for many years prior. I take great pains to get it right. Getting closer but still more time to go. Mine won't be a trailer queen.

I agree about over restoring and I think that it is unfortunately quite common in the concours arena. A "real" restorer's work shouldn't be measured against an over-restored vehicle.

TR4nut
07-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Its hard to really criticize this car, it looks extremely well done. A lot of it for me is just personal preference. For some reason, my pulse quickens a little more when I walk around a survivor car than I do with a beautifully restored car. But independent of that I think this particular car is gorgeous, its just not in my price range (ie cheap!)

I'm not a judge, but if I were I wouldn't try to ding a car for being restored versus one with patina. For either car, though, if I see something wrong as in not from the factory, I would dock 'em.

cascadia
07-16-2009, 02:40 PM
I think TRBill's comment about the car not being able to win at a concours for lack of patina is just misguided, perhaps he doesn't really understand how a concours works. Pebble Beach does now have a class for unrestored original cars, maybe that's what he was thinking about. I do love unrestored originals, but also love beautiful restorations. 2 completely different things, I don't try to argue which is better, I appreciate them both.

I'm actually the seller of this car, I restored it, I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments about it. A lot of you showed very sharp instincts on the pricing. I had the reserve set at 40, then lowered it to 37,500. I sold the car this morning on the phone to a dealer on the East Coast for 35. Sure, the car might have done better at one of the Monterey auctions next month but at this price I think it was "fair to seller, fair to buyer".

It's hard to value a TR4 in this condition because of a lack of comparison. There have been multiple big Healeys at auction the past few years that have established what a show grade example will sell for, it's is a little more murky for TR4's. All I know is that I learned a lot restoring mine, made a fair profit and had a good deal of fun along the way.

Andrew Mace
07-16-2009, 02:51 PM
Welcome to the Forum! I have to ask: was this car originally special-ordered in Cactus Green, or did you just like that particular Triumph color (which <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> correct for the time period)? It's one of my favorite Triumph colors; sadly, it virtually never made the paint color chart for US-bound Triumphs.

TR4nut
07-16-2009, 03:05 PM
Nice job Cascadia! Someone will be very happy with that car I think.

Randy

tomgt6
07-16-2009, 03:08 PM
I agree, it was very nicely done and if I could afford it this would be one to look at. Keep up the good work and save a few more.

cascadia
07-16-2009, 04:00 PM
Thanks! The car was originally red and almost everyone, including my painter, thought I was crazy not to repaint in red, especially since I was going to be selling it. I just really liked cactus green, thought it would suit the car, and knew it would the only TR4 out there in that color.

DNK
07-16-2009, 04:05 PM
Don't forget the money you'll get for selling the plate.

joejoecat
07-16-2009, 05:12 PM
Cascadia, I love TR4's have one now had one 40 years ago.You did a great job with that car.Beauty is beauty and it can't be denied.

glemon
07-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Cascadia, just wondered, do you know anymore than the documents reveal on the car being registered as a '66?

Joejoecat, are you the same guy that is bidding on my 25D distributor on Ebay-if so the second e-bay connection I have made on the forum in about a month, maybe the british car world is a smaller commmunity than I think.

joejoecat
07-17-2009, 05:53 AM
Yep! Same guy.

rustbucket
07-17-2009, 08:36 AM
Cascadia, that is one <span style="font-style: italic">awesome</span> TR4.

It is a shame that AH's are selling in the $70k range, but top quality TR's seem to be stuck in the mid 20's for the most part.

I hope that ol'rustbucket looks that good some day.

You have inspired me to get back to work on my project.