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Dudly
06-05-2009, 08:43 AM
Hi All. A few weeks ago I was in an auto parts store, one of the national boys. Anyhow I swear I was browsing motor oil and found one that stated it was formulated to meet the needs of older, solid lifter engines. I read further that it had pre-ban zinc levels. Since I didn't have money on me that day I didn't buy any. the long short of it is that now I can't remember what store I saw it in. I have visited two each of the national stores over the last couple days and no dice. I can't even remember what brand it was now.

I'm starting to suspect that it was a dream.
Anyone heard of such?

Thanks
D

Mickey Richaud
06-05-2009, 09:36 AM
I'm using Valvoline VR1; comes in 20W50. Not sure of the level of zinc, but it is one that still has a decent amount.

TR4nut
06-05-2009, 09:36 AM
I believe one of the Castrol Syntec oils has that kind of labeling. Definitely touts the ZDDP and older car formulation.

Randy

CinneaghTR
06-05-2009, 09:42 AM
Castrol Syntec 20W50 has the "Engineered for Classic Cars" labeling. I buy it at Pep Boys.

TR4
06-05-2009, 10:30 AM
Castrol Syntec 20W50 has the "Engineered for Classic Cars" labeling. I buy it at Pep Boys.

Read about it here
Castrol (https://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=70 32644)

Dudly
06-05-2009, 10:34 AM
Sweet, thank you guys. Now I've got a purpose this weekend.
Nice link TR4.

billspit
06-05-2009, 11:21 AM
Too bad its synthetic. I don't need an oil that will leak out even faster.

TR3driver
06-05-2009, 06:23 PM
Too bad its synthetic. I don't need an oil that will leak out even faster.
I'm convinced that not all synthetics do that. I've run a bunch of old, tired engines on Valvoline full synthetic motor oil, and not one of them has leaked any worse than with conventional oil. In one case, the full synthetic actually reduced consumption noticeably!

OTOH, I did one oil change in the LBC support vehicle with Mobil 1; and it did start leaking noticeably worse. I promptly switched back. Just completed a 5000 mile trip in it, it lost about a quart the whole trip. Not bad for having some 225,000 miles on the clock and all original seals.

Dale
06-05-2009, 09:10 PM
I am using the Valvoline VR1 also. Doesn't seem to be as pricey as the Castrol. Frankly I think they see us coming with the whole ZDDP thing, but what the heck.

pjsmetana
06-06-2009, 07:07 AM
If your talking about your 79 spit... why are you worried about ZDDP? Far as I know, you should have a catalytic converter.

Dudly
06-08-2009, 07:17 PM
Well anyway I found Brad Penn 20-50 race oil, AKA the green oil, (It really is green). So far, so good. Perhaps I am jumping the gun on the zinc issue, but I was told that the zinc provides protection for your cam that the more modern oils do not.

DNK
06-08-2009, 07:24 PM
Well anyway I found Brad Penn 20-50 race oil, AKA the green oil, (...
2 cases in my garage

Dudly
06-08-2009, 07:55 PM
Guy I bought it from is a dirt track racer with a very serious looking race car. he changes his oil every two races, 10q! He swears by it. I'm not sure how valid the debate is re: zinc and the protective film it's allegedly forms on cam lobes, but I figure what the hey, can't hurt. Plus the price was about the same as other brands, but less than premium. I just did a search on "The Green Oil".

MDCanaday
06-08-2009, 08:39 PM
The most critical thing on the reduced zinc oils seams to be on flat tappet cams with high spring rates to deal with.If you build a trick motor with high to crazy high pressure on the valve seats,you MUST add zinc for proper cam break in and keep it up as a preventative.Most of the rest of us are wasting our money as far as we can tell,but who really knows ??For myself I will add a little,even if the machine shop guy says I am worrying for nothing since the seat pressures on my tr4 are 100/105psi.
MD(mad dog)

pjsmetana
06-09-2009, 06:52 AM
https://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j293/pjsmetana/P1020112.jpg

Amsoil 5w30 is all I use. No ZDDP. I don't race this car and it came with a catalytic converter from the factory, which again, I assume your 79 did as well. I did a lot of research on the ZDDP additive and decided not to waste my money on it. Now, if I had a race car or an older car that didn't come with any emissions equipment then I would use it for sure.

swift6
06-09-2009, 08:38 AM
Having a catalytic converter, or any other emissions equipment, has nothing to do with needing ZDDP. It is whether or not it is a solid lifter design engine. ZDDP was reduced to extend catalytic converter life on newer cars. We are talking about extending a typical catalytic converter from 100K miles to 150K miles. The catalytic converter on your Spitfire was only designed to last about 50K miles.

Yuo may need to do more research.

There have been documented cases of modern BMW and Porsche Engines failing due to lack of ZDDP. Evidently the Germans didn't get the memo about the near elimination of ZDDP from the modern SM Oil formulation requirements.

Mickey Richaud
06-09-2009, 08:47 AM
Seems to me this issue is a lot like others that produce polarized opinions, all of which offer various levels of authority. I've read both sides, and it's hard to know what to believe. One side claims absolutely that ZDDP is needed in the older engines. Another says it's "snake oil". Still another says it's mainly necessary for break-in oil, and in cases of severe duty. :confuse:

I use VR1 in the TR8 just in case, as the Rover V8 is known to be a bit rough on cams and lifters anyway.

Still using Castrol GTX 20W-50 in the MGB.

tomshobby
06-09-2009, 09:21 AM
I have been happy with the oil I use in my TR6 and will probably use it in my Midget as well. I used GM EOS to break in the TR6 engine and will do the same to break in the Midget engine. No point to go against success.

jjw
06-09-2009, 03:53 PM
Being an engineer by profession, I always find this ZDDP topic very frustrating. It would be very easy, and well within the budget of a motor oil manufacturer / car parts manufacturer / independent lab to run experiments that would prove or disprove the claims that high levels of ZDDP are required in older flat tappet designs... but (not picking on anyone here) all I ever hear/read is anecdotal evidence and unsubstantiated claims...

I use to work for a guy that had a sign on his office door that said "Without data, you're just another opinion"...

Right now, all we seem to have is opinion.

TR3driver
06-09-2009, 04:11 PM
It would be very easy, and well within the budget of a motor oil manufacturer / car parts manufacturer / independent lab to run experiments that would prove or disprove the claims that high levels of ZDDP are required in older flat tappet designs... Jim, I have to disagree with that. It is basically impossible to demonstrate that <span style="font-weight: bold">no </span>older engine needs or does not need more ZDDP under some possible set of conditions. There are just too many engines (all with their own cam profiles, lifter composition, valve train mass, etc) times too many operating conditions (race track, freeway driving, secondary road, urban stop-n-go, parade) times too long to test an individual condition (or profile).

It's like trying to prove that there are no white crows. No matter how many black crows you find, you cannot <span style="font-weight: bold">prove</span> there are no white ones until you've seen every single crow in the world.

And previous experience with lead-free gasoline seems to demonstrate pretty well that even if someone DID do all that testing, a vocal minority of the motoring public would not believe them. We seem to have some deep-seated need to believe that our cars MUST have magic juice to run.

martx-5
06-09-2009, 05:27 PM
I don't know about white crows or black crows or magic juice, but what I do know is that the oil companies were putting in ZDDP in their oils for years until it was found to be detrimental to catalytic converters and O2 sensors. The oil companies didn't put that stuff in there just because they thought it would be nice for marketing purposes. It served a purpose. Once the ZDDP levels were dropped, it just seemed like there was a rash of cam and lifter failures. Coincidence??? Maybe. I don't know, nor do I care.

However, you can debate this back and forth all you want, but I'll err on the side of caution and make sure that the oil I put in my TR3 has sufficient amounts of ZDDP in it. Maybe it will save my cam and lifters. I don't see how it can hurt.

tomshobby
06-09-2009, 08:50 PM
I don't know about white crows or black crows or magic juice, but what I do know is that the oil companies were putting in ZDDP in their oils for years until it was found to be detrimental to catalytic converters and O2 sensors. The oil companies didn't put that stuff in there just because they thought it would be nice for marketing purposes. It served a purpose. Once the ZDDP levels were dropped, it just seemed like there was a rash of cam and lifter failures. Coincidence??? Maybe. I don't know, nor do I care.

However, you can debate this back and forth all you want, but I'll err on the side of caution and make sure that the oil I put in my TR3 has sufficient amounts of ZDDP in it. Maybe it will save my cam and lifters. I don't see how it can hurt.

And because it is your car and you pay the bills, right?

I also remember the rash of cam failures in this forum a few years back, mine included. I am of the opinion that we each need to do our own research and decide what oil to use. Notice I did not tell what oil I use because it is only my opinion, and only as valuable as everyone else's.

jjw
06-10-2009, 08:26 AM
Randall... I agree that one can't test things under every possible condition, that would indeed be impossible. However, experiments could be constructed that would test the affects of varying amounts of ZDDP in typical, controlled and repeatable conditions. I for one would be very interested in seeing those results. I've spent a significant part of my career working around Tribologists (scientists that basically study wear between interacting materials) and those guys do that type of experimentation all the time... its just too bad it isn't with motor oils in old British cars... :smile:

Mickey Richaud
06-10-2009, 08:55 AM
One wonders why, since it's such a big issue, such tests haven't already been done... :confuse:

If there's a definitive voice on this, I sure haven't seen it!

swift6
06-10-2009, 09:56 AM
Well, for one there is a lot of political pressure to get rid of older cars because they pollute too much. New car manufacturers are not going to fund it because they want everyone to buy new cars. Oil companies make more money from new cars and the newer formulations needed for advancing technologies. As big as the old car market is, its not big enough to fund extensive studies. Its far easier to put some ZDDP back into some, call it an oil for "classic cars" and charge an extra $2/quart.

Someone earlier mentioned the spring pressure aspect. In the hot rodding world where the cam/lifter failures first cropped up with the ZDDP reduction it was with the real high lift/high spring pressure combinations. My TR6 suffered lifter failure as well in 2001 on a newly rebuilt engine with a GP3 camshaft. Whether it was the reduced ZDDP or poor quality lifters is still undetermined. But agreeing with another earlier comment, I'm paying the bills so I will use what I want to use and what I have determined to work.

Mark Jones
06-10-2009, 10:40 AM
ZDDP levels were not reduced in gasoline motor oils until 2005 I believe, and diesel motors oil just last year. If and engine built in 2001 had lifter/cam problems it wasn't related to low ZDDP levels.

TR3driver
06-10-2009, 11:53 AM
And cam/lifter problems have been VERY common since at least 1980 or so. Lots of finger pointing between engine builders, cam grinders and manufacturers ... seems like now they have found another direction to point the finger.

Lots and lots of tests have been run, although most of them have not been published on the 'net. Here's one interesting paper I found:
https://www.ciba.com/pf/docMDMS.asp?targetlibrary=_SalesAndMarketing&amp;docnu mber=29309

TR3driver
06-10-2009, 12:29 PM
However, experiments could be constructed that would test the affects of varying amounts of ZDDP in typical, controlled and repeatable conditions. Here you go
https://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-01-2986
https://www.sae.org/technical/papers/831760
Lots more at
SAE search for papers on ZDP (https://www.sae.org/servlets/SiteSearch?charset=iso-8859-1&amp;ht=0&amp;qp=&amp;col=portal&amp;qs=&amp;sae_qt1=&amp;qc=&amp;pw=100%2525 &amp;ws=0&amp;la=en&amp;qm=0&amp;st=1&amp;nh=25&amp;lk=1&amp;rf=0&amp;oq=&amp;rq=0&amp;si= 1&amp;ql=&amp;jsp_name=simplesearch.jsp&amp;qt=zdp&amp;ofType=ALL&amp; x=0&amp;y=0)

TruCraft
06-10-2009, 01:48 PM
I have been running Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 in my Opel-GT. The engine is a modified, high compression, big valve, agressive cam and solid lifters. I rev it to 7K all the time with no lube problems.
*I have it in my TR3 now.
I also add 1/2 can of STP at every oil change.
Plus it's available at Walmart.
Lyle

<span style="text-decoration: underline">I wrote to Shell and asked about Rotella</span>.

"Lyle,
Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 contains approximately 1200 ppm zinc. That's about the same amount as API SJ-rated oils
contained prior to 2001, and about 50% more than found in most automotive gasoline engine oils in the market today. Historically, 1200 ppm zinc has performed well in protection of engines with flat
tappet camshafts.
Thank you for your interest in Shell Lubricants!
Regards,
Edward A. Calcote
Staff Chemist
Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center
https://www.shell.com/us/lubricants"

swift6
06-10-2009, 04:33 PM
ZDDP levels were not reduced in gasoline motor oils until 2005 I believe, and diesel motors oil just last year. If and engine built in 2001 had lifter/cam problems it wasn't related to low ZDDP levels.


The reduction in ZDDP actually began in the mid 80's with the implementation of OBD-I systems. The general public was only largely made aware of it with the latest SM classification of gasoline motor oil at the end of 2004. It began with SF rated oils and SG, SH, SJ and SL all saw further reductions.

The higher the spring pressure, the more the ZDDP is needed. But even stock engine camshaft profiles can generate 200,000psi between the tappet and the camshaft.

bob67bgt
06-11-2009, 07:06 PM
I did a MGB lifter rockwell test and posted the results on the MG section. Its down at the end of page 4 or top of page 5 today. It may be a interesting read for TR people interested in cam and lifter issues. Bob