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MadRiver
12-15-2008, 12:21 PM
Howdy all:

With winter now firmly here (despite being 60 degrees in the Nation's Capital), I'm making out my hibernation punch list. I've had my original Silverstones sitting in the garage for over a year, and figure that I might get around to installing them.

My question is this. Were Silverstones painted or bare metal or perhaps clearcoat? The prior owner painted them, but I'm not sure if this is right.

Thanks!

B.

tomshobby
12-15-2008, 12:28 PM
Hi Bill,

I purchased a set in 1968 and they were not painted, but had a clear coating that American sold. The bare metal would oxidize and develop a white powder on it as well as gradually disintegrate and weaken the casting itself. Besides the cosmetic effect was rather unsightly. American may still sell the coating in spray cans.

Twosheds
12-15-2008, 12:30 PM
I've told you this before, Bill.

I asked the vendor at VTR if he had those wheels dye-penetrant inspected before painting them. He didn't know what dye-penetrant inspection was, so I steered clear of those wheels.

I think you should strip the paint from the wheels using a chemical (non-mechanical) method and have the wheels dye-penetrant inspected before using them. A mechanical method of paint removal (abrasive blast, wheel, brush, etc.) can burnish the material over a crack and could prevent the dye from penetrating a crack.

I'm just looking out for you.

tomshobby
12-15-2008, 12:34 PM
:iagree: Having had a set I completely agree with that

MadRiver
12-15-2008, 01:30 PM
I've told you this before, Bill.

I asked the vendor at VTR if he had those wheels dye-penetrant inspected before painting them. He didn't know what dye-penetrant inspection was, so I steered clear of those wheels.

I think you should strip the paint from the wheels using a chemical (non-mechanical) method and have the wheels dye-penetrant inspected before using them. A mechanical method of paint removal (abrasive blast, wheel, brush, etc.) can burnish the material over a crack and could prevent the dye from penetrating a crack.

I'm just looking out for you.

Hi John -- now that you mention it, you did in fact tell me that before. Wow, so much for medium-term memory. *blush*

I knew there was a reason I hadn't installed them yet. Guess I'm starting to get old!

Thanks guys!

WedgeWorks
12-15-2008, 03:12 PM
Twosheds-I agree, if the rims are prone to cracking getting them dye-penetrant (PT) inspected is a good idea and it is better to check and not have an issue with cracking then to not check and have a rim shear off. The hard part is if they have a rough casting or smooth. If it is rough the dye for solvent removable....spray cans is hard to remove and over cleaning might remove more excess dye then you want to. If you do not remove enough of the excess dye then you can have false indications. If they are smooth then over removal of dye could be an issue as well! If you are going to paint them or even use a clear coat and plan on getting them PT inspected you need to make sure they are cleaned extremely well. The dye does attract moisture and will bleed out of surface openings and through paint. I am in the DC area and have been doing NDT (NonDestructive Testing)for a living almost 14 years now and check all kind of parts; flywheels, rims, hubs, roll cage welds, cranks, blocks, etc. Better safe then sorry!
Twosheds-You at Peach Bottom?

Twosheds
12-15-2008, 03:38 PM
Good point, Wedge. The Silverstones I have seen are indeed rough (porous, even?) which does not make for good dye-penetrant inspection. I have taught dye-penetrant inspection to a Level 1 (basic idea) level. I have seen entire castings turn red if they are rough because the dye would not remove easily!

Maybe eddy current would be better. This is used alot on aircraft magnesium wheels.

I am near Myersville, Maryland. The Soggy Bottom is my yard where the TR3 Lab is. It is soggy since that three-inch rain we had!

DNK
12-15-2008, 07:35 PM
Strip them and have them clear PC'd

WedgeWorks
12-15-2008, 07:49 PM
Twosheds-
I think if you were to do any testing it would be a water washable flourescent PT this way you see the smallest of cracks and you are sure to get all the dyes out of the part. In the end if it was me I would get the rims checked out somehow if they have a rep of cracking. Good luck guys!

angelfj1
12-15-2008, 08:12 PM
I believe I have responded to this in the past but that's OK. You might be able to find that thread in case I forget something important. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">"Real" AR Silverstones were never sold painted.</span></span> There were a few knock-offs produced and they may have been painted. The original wheels had polished rims which made a very nice contrast against the un-polished spokes. The spokes take on a very nice greyish patina after exposure to moisture. The rims will also eventually turn grey if you don's keep after them or clear coat them. As you may be aware, I have been running my set of ARS's since 1985 and except for the incident with the bad tire last year, I have never had a problem. If you need to remove paint be careful to use a gentle plastic media at a medium pressure, say 50 - 60 psi. Magnesium corodes in the presence of moisture. The corrosion can be bad and open up fissures in the material leading to failure. The place that I have seen the worst corrosion in an ARS is the inside of the wheel (the area that holds the air). This is due to the fact that the air that we use to fill our tires is generally wet. What I did and I got this suggestion from an old LBC racer, was to paint the entire inside of the wheel with a good epoxy paint. This fills the pores and delays corrosion. Another benefit of painting the inside of the wheels - if you go tubeless as I did, you wont have to top-off the air as often. These really go flat fast without tubes (if not painted). After you are happy with the "look" of the wheels you can clear coat them. Another thing that I can not stress enough is proper balancing. The standard spin balancing equipment may not be sufficient. Go to someone with the "Road Force" machine. They can also check the run out of the wheels. What I did was to bring the tires to them unmounted. First they checked run-out of the wheels - it was OK. Then they checked the balance of the wheels without tires and marked the place that would have required a balance weight. Then they repeated this operation with the tires and they were able to move the tires relative to the wheels to counteract most of the unbalance and made up the difference with very little weight - just a few ounces! In other words, they were able to use the heavier part of the tires to balance the wheels. One reason why I had this problem was that my BFG Redline are very low production - almost handmade and lay-up variations happen. I had one tire that was way off - and this had to be replaced. Your tires may be more uniform. But IMHO, if you don't go through these extra pains you may end up with a resonant vibration like I did. good luck

https://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/angelfj/AmericanRacingSilverstones/DSC01843-sml.jpg
<span style="font-weight: bold">My ARS's - on the TR250 since 1985 with authentic Nok-Offs </span>

https://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/angelfj/AmericanRacingSilverstones/arw-11.jpg
<span style="font-weight: bold">Real ARS's have a casting number - 61550</span>

tomshobby
12-15-2008, 08:43 PM
This is pic from FJA shows why I like the Silverstones so much. The spokes actually go all the way to the center hub. I believe this makes a much stronger wheel.

https://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/angelfj/AmericanRacingSilverstones/DSC01843-sml.jpg

richards
12-16-2008, 06:57 PM
Part one: have wheels inspected, cleaned, trued, rim machine polished:https://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r10/RMSTR6/Copy2ofIMG_0313.jpg
Part two: I could not get the "natural" look of the "mag" to be stain free, so I painted them:https://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r10/RMSTR6/IMG_0502.jpghttps://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r10/RMSTR6/IMG_0504.jpg
Then, after a lot of work and a lot of polishing, put them on the car:https://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r10/RMSTR6/TRNEWMAGS-1.jpg

RMS TR6

bob67bgt
12-16-2008, 08:32 PM
Richards ARE's do not have a part number on the inside. Does that mean it was sold by ARE and not installed as a factory or dealer option? There is a set of 13 inch spit silverstones on ebay right now with the original spinners!search magnesium wheels. These are the best looking wheels ever made. Also the aluminium version silverstones have a slightly different spoke design. The area around the lugnut is not as rounded. I like the look of the magnesium casting but the ease of maintainance of the aluminium ones. NICE wheels!!!!bob

bob67bgt
12-16-2008, 08:37 PM
Here is a pic of my old aluminium wheels. They were all rh thread and no lettering on the spinners. bob

rotoflex
12-17-2008, 07:34 AM
The original sales literature for the GT6 states that the racing wheels (AR's) were available in aluminum or magnesium. I don't know if the TR250 wheels were available in both or just one or the other.

I certainly wouldn't put a 40-year-old magnesium wheel on the ground except for sitting stock still at a car show. If nothing else, remember XJ-13. I don't know if the aluminum versions were as prone to deterioration.

Every now &amp; then I see a set of the magnesium wheels come up on ebay, &amp; just hope that the buyer knows better than to drive on them.

angelfj1
12-17-2008, 12:06 PM
I've put over 40k miles over 25 years on my magnesium ARS wheels. Maybe I'm lucky, but I see no unusual risk here. Of course I drive the car in a spirited manner but have never raced or driven it in an abusive manner. I believe there is much greater risk in driving some of our vintage sportscars with old tires. I can't tell you how many TR's and MG's I see with original Michelin X tires.

Concerning wheels without the casting numbers, there is anecdotal evidence that knock-offs were produced. So, the only way to be absolutely sure that you have the real thing is the evidence from the original molds - which would be very difficult to counterfeit.

Magnesium is over 50 percent lighter at 1.738g/cm³ vs 2.7g/cm³ for aluminium. Magnesium also has some advantages in casting and machining. BUT, aluminium corrodes badly in the presence of water. So, I guess if you were a racer trying to shed every last ounce, the mags were your choice. AND these were fairly cheap back in the 60's, about $45 each.

Here's another photo I found with additional markings.

https://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/angelfj/AmericanRacingSilverstones/arw-12.jpg

angelfj1
12-17-2008, 12:09 PM
Interesting. Are you sure that the aluminum and magnesium ARS wheels were cast in different molds. Do your alum. wheels have any casting ID numbers?

angelfj1
12-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Richards: that's a beautiful job

what is a rim machine?

I prefer the contrast that you get between the polished magnesium rim and the 'greyish' spokes!

Twosheds
12-17-2008, 12:30 PM
Richards: that's a beautiful job

what is a rim machine?

I prefer the contrast that you get between the polished magnesium rim and the 'greyish' spokes!

Frank, I think that he is saying that he had the rims polished by a machine, not that he had the wheels polished by a rim machine.

Magnesium is very susceptible to corrosion. When I taught Corrosion Control, I would make the students put different materials used in aircraft constuction into corrosive solutions and record the results. The favorite was magnesium in runway de-icer. The magnesium reacted like an Alka-Seltzer in water. Know what aircraft wheels are made of? Magnesium!

angelfj1
12-17-2008, 12:39 PM
Hey John - How ya doing man? Ready for Christmas?

tell me because I know that you know the answer. why is magnesium so sensitive to water. Does it have to do with the electrical (galvanic) properties? Alum doesn't seem to mind water too much.

Frank

Twosheds
12-17-2008, 05:33 PM
Hey John - How ya doing man? Ready for Christmas?

tell me because I know that you know the answer. why is magnesium so sensitive to water. Does it have to do with the electrical (galvanic) properties? Alum doesn't seem to mind water too much.

Frank

I'm still kickin'!

Frank, you are really asking a lot of my poor old brain, but I think you're right. If I recall correctly, magnesium is lower than aluminum on the nobility chart. This means that it will give up its electrons easier and corrode easier. It's either that way or the other way around.

I seem to recall also that it's not the water itself but the impurities in the water that work as an electrolyte to carry the electrons away from the corroding metal. Stuff like runway de-ice or road salt. I had students put materials in distilled water and there was no reaction.

Don Elliott
12-17-2008, 05:45 PM
There was a church parish where they decided to replace the old copper roof at considerable expense. The new one looked great. But about five years later all the copper sheets started to slip off the roof and almost decapitated passers-by. It seems the roofers had used iron nails and the corrosion ate the heads off the nails or the holes got enlarged around the nails. One or the other. Like JR, I don't remember which gets eaten away by what. But it can become serious and it can be financially expensive.

TR3driver
12-17-2008, 06:14 PM
ISTR that the reason Magnesium does worse than aluminum has mostly to do with the characteristics of the oxide. They both form an oxide layer on the surface almost immediately when exposed to air, but aluminum oxide is far tougher and more stable than magnesium oxide. Rubies are aluminum oxide; magnesium oxide is Mylanta <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

Don, copper is above steel in the galvanic series, so most likely it corroded the stems of the nails, just under the heads. Any competant tradesman should know to use copper nails ...

martx-5
12-17-2008, 06:46 PM
...

Don, copper is above steel in the galvanic series, so most likely it corroded the stems of the nails, just under the heads. Any competant tradesman should know to use copper nails ...

That's why all of the copper water lines in my basement are secured with copper straps and nails. They look just as good today as when they were installed fifty-eight years ago!

bob67bgt
12-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Angelfi, looking at the spoke castings it appears very different at the lugnut.There are no casting/part numbers on the aluminium ones. Kind of like the ones from the blue tr6. The web design appears the same on the insides.I have seen aluminium ones with lh and rh threaded nokof and ones just rh. I sold my car just over a year ago. i think i have a pic of the inside of the spare 5th wheel. My first aluuminium set came from Atlanta in 1976. They were not threaded and had the original ARE center caps with the single screw in the middle. My good friend Kevin in NJ has a set in aluminium with all rh spinners on his tr5. He also has a set of aluminium gt6 silverstones and his brother has a set of magnesium gt6 silverstones. I will see if i can find that pic.

Twosheds
12-17-2008, 08:41 PM
Like JR, I don't remember which gets eaten away by what.

It just came to me, Don.

Dr. Chiu, Chem 101, had a very good friend named LEO.

Lose Electrons Oxidize.

Still some brain cells left, remarkably.

richards
12-18-2008, 12:44 PM
RE: my wheels.
The rims were polished by machine, and weekly by hand by me.

Also, I forgot to mention that I had a machine shop install "lug nut hole" bushings.
The existing lug nut holes looked out of round, so these bushings established the center to center dimensions between lug nut holes, and the correct lug nut hole dimensions, so then the wheel is bolted up, it is correctly centered.

angelfj1
12-18-2008, 12:56 PM
Don: Our church has a slate roof with copper flashings. The slates are drilled and attached with copper nails.

angelfj1
12-18-2008, 12:58 PM
Randall: I don't suppose that my ARS wheels will be producing rubies soon? If they would I'd love to retire. Presently my 401k is worth 2/3 of what it was 1 year ago. :eeek:

TR3driver
12-18-2008, 02:01 PM
Unfortunately, the oxide layer is microscopic; and microscopic rubies are worth even less than your (and my) 401k. Something about supply and demand ...

angelfj1
12-18-2008, 02:57 PM
Angelfi, looking at the spoke castings it appears very different at the lugnut.There are no casting/part numbers on the aluminium ones. Kind of like the ones from the blue tr6. The web design appears the same on the insides.I have seen aluminium ones with lh and rh threaded nokof and ones just rh. I sold my car just over a year ago. i think i have a pic of the inside of the spare 5th wheel. My first aluuminium set came from Atlanta in 1976. They were not threaded and had the original ARE center caps with the single screw in the middle. My good friend Kevin in NJ has a set in aluminium with all rh spinners on his tr5. He also has a set of aluminium gt6 silverstones and his brother has a set of magnesium gt6 silverstones. I will see if i can find that pic.

Bob: thanks - that's very interesting I didn't know that the alum wheels were different!

Don Elliott
12-18-2008, 10:58 PM
My great grandfather in North Wales built (or was part of the engineering group) that put in the narrow gauge railway that went from Crickieth up to the slate mines. That's right, they called them mines. About 1850, the workers would take the train to work (about 15 miles) up into the mountainous area where the rock was all slate. The would chip out the slate off the bare rock face in all sorts of weather and the trains would transport it down to the village. From there, the slate was shipped all over the world.

I don't know where slate falls on the electrovalent chart. Maybe JR or Darrell can provide some input.

BTW, I took that train ride in 1996. The train has been restored and it's a lovely ride up into the "slate mines". It meant a lot to me.

Now you know the rest of the story.