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View Full Version : %*!##! Handbrake part two



Tinster
12-11-2008, 09:58 AM
<span style="color: #000099">I hope there is a special extra hot cave in heck for
designers who create parts combinations, they themselves
could never assemble. Hateful, hateful, hateful hand brake assembly!!

Why -0h- Why did I ever decide to make my hand brake fully
functional... when I remember the torture and agony
installing it the first time- with slack in the cables??

Now that the center of my car is once again torn open
and the hand brake in individual pieces, I am still unclear
how the spring and button fit into the scheme of things.

Does the small, semi-loop at the very end of the spring,
slide down the arm shaft, with radius against the metal arm?

Does the semi-loop slide over top of the small hinged,
single tooth arm, inside the handbrake lever??

If this concept is correct? Do I wrap everything in strong
tape to hold it together while I try to thread the eye of the
needle with bushings, bolt, etc?

BTW- I did not have the energy to remove my rear end twice
in one week. I am working with hand brake cables under tension.
I've come up with a way to get the assembly apart under tension.
Put back together might be a different story.

thanks,

d
d</span>

TR6oldtimer
12-11-2008, 10:18 AM
For parking, these would be simpler.

https://www.softsmart.com/popup/PopupPix9/Chocks.jpg

TR4nut
12-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Does the semi-loop slide over top of the small hinged,
single tooth arm, inside the handbrake lever??


Dale-

Haven't done one of those in years, but I was thinking the above was the way it works. By doing it that way, the tooth arm holds the button and spring in place. The spring in turn, provides tension to engage the tooth arm, and when you push the button you push the arm off the other toothed piece. The figure the online catalog shows doesn't make much sense to me, which makes me think it is wrong - the way it is shown in the catalog is more like a TR3 or TR4 setup where you push the button to set the brake, not release it.

Just a thought.
Randy

Tinster
12-11-2008, 11:15 AM
For parking, these would be simpler.

https://www.softsmart.com/popup/PopupPix9/Chocks.jpg

<span style="color: #000099">Ray- I have a set of the identical chocks in black
plastic. I have been using them now almost three years since my
hand brake was not functional.

Sometimes, I could kick myself in the rear end for being so stubborn
when it comes to loose ends. I am of the super old school where we
leave the car in gear and turn the front wheels into the curb.
The emergency brake is an afterthought and not to be trusted.

I know my car is a POS, compared to all the fantastic restored Triumphs
in America, but still I am trying to make everything at least mostly
functional. I ain't no Pedro and I hope the Good Lord zaps me with lightning,
if ever I get a Pedro-ized concept thought.

I'll plug away at it and maybe write up a "How to" for BobbyD!!

This is a tiny but PITA prject.

regards,

dale</span>

Dudly
12-11-2008, 11:48 AM
Dale,
I've seen your TR, and it's no POS!
one thing I can say bout my rather short tenure with my first LBC is there is a wide variety of state of condition. There was a great article in hemmings a while back, think it was "Drivable Dream" segment, anyhow this guy had an MGB GT in various stages of decay, but it ran, and he was having a blast with it in the snowy reaches of New England.

Kinda reminded me of my dad, he had this 74 olds Delta 88. He loved the darn thing, equal parts mold and salt crystals growing in the rear seat, broken rear end, exhaust made of tin cans, wire hangers. The whole block knew when dad turned on the street.

My spit is solid, but far from A-1. IN some ways I'm attracted to it's patina, it's flaws.

Anyway, I don't know where I was going with this...

P.S. My 10yo daughter can push my spit with the emergency brake set.

Tinster
12-11-2008, 12:46 PM
I am going to perform the very first Dales originated
Pedro-ized restore/repair.

I have spent six hours today attempting to connect the hand brake arm,
spring and plastic button to my newly adjusted
hand brake cables.

One of the few total attempt failures on my part. Now I kinda
understand why FDPO Pedro sold me the car without a functional handbreak.
If F-Pedro's juckyard mechanic could not do, there was a good possibility
it was beyeond me. And it was.

I am going back to a nice looking but(non functional hand break) and leave
my car in gear and install chocks, as I have for three years.

My car is hardy a barely a driver, won't win any beauty
contests so why should it matter some componets are non-funtional ut look good?

Maybe in the future, my health will improve and I can spend another solid
week tearing out the rear end to set the hand brakes?? For now.- in gear
with chocks will do just fine.

d

TR6oldtimer
12-11-2008, 12:56 PM
<span style="color: #000099">Ray- I have a set of the identical chocks in black
plastic. I have been using them now almost three years since my
hand brake was not functional.

Sometimes, I could kick myself in the rear end for being so stubborn
when it comes to loose ends. I am of the super old school where we
leave the car in gear and turn the front wheels into the curb.
The emergency brake is an afterthought and not to be trusted.

I know my car is a POS, compared to all the fantastic restored Triumphs
in America, but still I am trying to make everything at least mostly
functional. I ain't no Pedro and I hope the Good Lord zaps me with lightning,
if ever I get a Pedro-ized concept thought.

I'll plug away at it and maybe write up a "How to" for BobbyD!!

This is a tiny but PITA project.

regards,

dale</span>

Just a little kidding on my part. I too learned the wheels to the curb and in gear thing. Once when I was 7 years or so old, in a school bus, parked on a hill, and the driver stepped outside, I jumped into the drivers seat and pushed in the clutch. The parking brake on the bus failed, and it started down the hill. Fortunately it only went about five feet onto the sidewalk and hit a pole.

Needless to say, I got a whipping.

As to your car, I do not think it is a POS and have to hand it to you for your tenacity. Many others would have crushed it long ago.

The parking brake handle is a pain here is some help

https://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb247/tr6oldtimer/TR6%20Cockpit/PC110002-1.jpg

Notice the release rod goes over the small cog. The only way to get it in place is to remove the handle so the little cog is not engaged in the larger one, then the swearing begins.

Tinster
12-11-2008, 01:02 PM
thanks Ray- I've not tried that particular combo.

<span style="color: #CC0000"> Edit: My bad, yes I tried that combo many times with much swearing.

I am pointing more and more to the "cosmetic" handbrake
with chocks for actually stoppiong..</span>

d

Andrew Mace
12-11-2008, 01:16 PM
...I have spent six hours today attempting to connect the hand brake arm, spring and plastic button to my newly adjusted hand brake cables.

One of the few total attempt failures on my part. Now I kinda
understand why FDPO Pedro sold me the car without a functional handbreak....I am going back to a nice looking but (nonfunctional hand break) and leave my car in gear and install chocks, as I have for three years.

My car is hardy a barely a driver, won't win any beauty
contests so why should it matter some componets are non-funtional ut look good?Well, the next time you find yourself with faulty hydraulic brakes and you pull on that e-brake handle, you might realize why it matters.

Perhaps the secret in assembling all this properly is to forget about the fact that you'd had "newly adjusted hand brake cables"? Disconnect or loosen them enough to work through the handle assembly, then reconnect/readjust the cables...which you'd likely have to do, anyway.

IanF
12-11-2008, 01:28 PM
I feel your pain... I'm sitting here racking my brain trying to remember what I did to install/assemble the similar Spitfire hand brake in Robyn's car... It was annoying, but I don't remember it taking more than an hour or so.

Would disconnecting or slacking the cable at the rear wheels help? I'm pretty sure I installed the handle with the cables disconnected at the rear. Then re-adjust after assembly.

edit: yeah... what Andy said...

I do remember when I took the hand brake apart, I spent a solid hour fiddling with it so I understood how it worked so I'd be able to put it back together again months later. Plus, I stored it assembled.

tdskip
12-11-2008, 01:31 PM
Well, the next time you find yourself with faulty hydraulic brakes and you pull on that e-brake handle, you might realize why it matters.


YES - ebrake, not parking brake.

I personally am not going to drive the TR6 more than around the block without it working.

IanF
12-11-2008, 01:39 PM
I think it technically <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> considered a "parking" brake rather than an "E-brake". The difference being an e-brake is a redundant braking system completely separate from the car's normal braking.

This is actually somewhat rare and even most modern car's don't have them (our MINI's and my VW don't - it's integrated into the rear calipers). The Volvo actually does - a cable operated drum brake inside the rear brake rotor hat. Robyn's old '97 BMW had a similar set-up.

Not saying that I would want to drive far w/o a working one. The Volvo's is marginal, but fortunately the complicated dual circuit set-up provides a certain level of extra security.

BobbyD
12-11-2008, 01:40 PM
Well, the next time you find yourself with faulty hydraulic brakes and you pull on that e-brake handle, you might realize why it matters.


YES - ebrake, not parking brake.

I personally am not going to drive the TR6 more than around the block without it working.


I second that statement. I did drive home, a very short distance, when my M/C decided to puke its guts in to the servo and engine bay. The EMERGENCY brake got me home as I had very little hydraulic braking. I'd never drive without one in good working order.

BobbyD
12-11-2008, 01:57 PM
The only way I could do it with the cables still attached was to remove the handbrake from the bracket by taking out bolt DR8. I'm assuming the button and rod (DR3) are attached. Put the button, rod and spring down through the handle and get the end of the rod to engage the hole in DR5 (in the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">purple circle</span></span>). The I rotated DR5 so that the button popped out the top of the handle and tapped the button and the handle together. That maintains tension on DR5 so that the rod doesn't come unhooked. Ray's picture above shows how that lip on part DR7 catches the whole mounting bracket.

That was the easy part. The swearing part was getting those <span style="font-weight: bold">pieces with the red arrow all lined up</span> so that the bolt could pass through the whole thing. I used lots of new words, patience, awls, tapered punches etc to try and get it lined up. But that bolt will fit.

https://tr6.danielsonfamily.org/ForumImages/Handbrake.jpg

Tinster
12-11-2008, 02:01 PM
So OK!! The very first assembly Dale has Pedro-ized.
Eventually I will un-Pedro-ize it. But not soon.

I removed the rear end suspension components on both sides:
I took up the slack in the my brand new hand brake cables, I adjusted my brand new TRF brake shoes, I added grease into every zerk I could reach, I inspected all my brand new suspension bushings and checked torque readings.


I put a torque wrench on every fastener according to Bently.
I lightly coated every fastener head with grease to slow down the salt air rusting. Thezn I put everything back togehte r all worked just great....except the hand brake ratchet gear.

I could NOT get he hand brake ratchet functional, not matter what it did, short of stripping the rear suspension again in less than one week. That was over 40 hours I care NOT to repeat for a stupid hand brake rathcet.

I have a functional hand break now but it will NOT lock in place. So be it- We are talking about the Crypt Car not
Paul or BobbyD's muesum car.

thamks,

dale- I just gonna drive my POS, AAMCO painted, maybe breaks down, pedro-ized but but getting better-1969 TR6.

dale

Tinster
12-11-2008, 02:04 PM
Reply----------

My problem exzctly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rlandrum
12-11-2008, 02:23 PM
https://tr6.danielsonfamily.org/ForumImages/Handbrake.jpg


Interesting. I was under the impression that the TR6 was a "push-to-release" handbrake, not a "push-to-set".

Dale, are you sure you're operating the brake correctly? It would appear to me to be set by lifting up, pressing the button and holding it, while releasing tension on the handle.

I could be wrong...

TR4nut
12-11-2008, 02:24 PM
Bob-

Your drawing shows exactly my earlier point. If the rod is attached to the hole you've shown with the arrow, when you push the button, you would move part DR5 foward and engage it with DR7. Are you sure about that? That is more of a TR3 style engagement. Isn't a TR6 handle push to disengage?

Randy


edit: too slow at typing, what rlandrum said!

TR3driver
12-11-2008, 02:54 PM
Perhaps the secret in assembling all this properly is to forget about the fact that you'd had "newly adjusted hand brake cables"? Should be no need to lose the adjustment. Just pull out the pins where the cables attach to the levers at the rear brakes. That should give you enough slack to work on the handle. When you are done, as long as you've not moved the handle's pivot point on the body, you should be able to just put the pins back in and have the cables still adjusted.

As I mentioned in the other thread on this subject, I learned the hard way some years ago that a working handbrake is a necessity. Had my TR3A parked in the 'overflow' parking at the condo I lived in, on a rather steep hill. Needed to get the car ready to move as we had lost our lease, so I hopped into it and headed down into the underground parking garage. Halfway down the hill (past the point of no return) I discovered that ALL of the brake fluid was still back in the overflow parking; the pedal just dangled loosely.

Did everything I knew how to stop the car, including racing the engine to get it into 1st gear (no synchromesh on a TR3A) then shutting the engine off completely; plus weaving back and forth and literally dragging my left foot on the pavement. (Ruined my shoe, too.) I honestly thought I had it slow enough that it wouldn't jump the curb at the end, but I was wrong. Mashed the bumper and apron back into the radiator.

Later I lost the car entirely ... the old manager said it could stay in the overflow parking for another month, but the new manager had it towed away the very next day. By the time I went looking for it, it had supposedly already been crushed.

TR3driver
12-11-2008, 02:57 PM
Nope, nope ... the TR6 never had a "fly off" handbrake, you have to push the button to release the brake. Consequently, the rod does NOT go through that hole as Bob has shown.

BobbyD
12-11-2008, 03:25 PM
So much for using the TRF Blue book as a source. And it was a year ago that I did this so lots of brain cells have fallen out since. I just went out and checked.......even though the drums are off the car. It is a push to release. To set it, I just pull the handle up and it clicks into one of the notches. To release it, I push the button and hold it in while lowering the handle. So the rod must go into the top hole of DR5 so a push pivots the bottom away from the engagement? Better yet.....I'll quote Haynes....."reassembly is the opposite of assembly" :wall:

Tinster
12-11-2008, 03:27 PM
Nope. np hole for positive traction!!

A lame design, at best.
Edit: Just confirming, there is no hole for the spring
arm to lock into.

I gave some thought to drilling a hole and installing
200# braided fishing leader ro pull the ratchet arms
away from the teeth.

I have a functional hand brake now - it just will not lock
into position. Life ain't perfect and I live in the middle of nowhere!!

D

TR4nut
12-11-2008, 03:36 PM
Ray's pic shows how it needs to go back together - the loop on the rod goes 'over' the cam piece (DR5).

Tinster
12-11-2008, 04:52 PM
Bobby- go to your room an stand
in the corner for 45 minute. Contemplate
the lost work day you caused Dale.

Then you are welcome back into BCF but
not before!!

d

Tinster
12-11-2008, 05:04 PM
I find it so difficult to conceive that folks actually
purchased new TR6s and drove them further than the
entrance to the dealer's lot before they broke down.
Not to downgrade the hobbiest but these Triumphs should
never been sold to the public. Too expensive to maintain/repair.
Too unreliable, too prone to breakdowns.

I have never owned such a $$ cost intensive, maintenance
prone vehicle, breakdown prone vehicle in my life. And
remenber, I owned a Lotus Europa.

My goodness, I've lowered my cost to $4,000. per mile cost
from $7,000 per mile. $4,000 frigging dollars to drive around
the block. I'm just venting today at the almost $50,000. this
POS car has cost me and I do not even have a fully functional
hand break..

Does it ever end and cost like $1.25 per mile driven?
Or does it remain at $$ tens of thousands per year for a few hundred
miles driven?

dale in the dumps today!!

TR3driver
12-11-2008, 05:20 PM
Well, it probably helps that most people don't buy them as unsuccessfully assembled kits !

poolboy
12-11-2008, 05:31 PM
Dale try to put the handbrake deal aside for awhile. You've got the most important function, the ability to help stop the car.
As far as rolling from a parking spot, seems like you got that licked. too.
Forget it. Grab a shot of something.

Tinster
12-11-2008, 05:33 PM
Well, it probably helps that most people don't buy them as unsuccessfully assembled kits !

<span style="color: #660000">Sorry for the "poor me" post randall. The car repairs
kinda crept up one me one $500 a pop at a time until I've got a $50,000
non-reliable Triumph 1969 TR6 parked in the garage.

Maybe if I wasn't so darned ill with this cardiac virus my attitude
would be better. I do so enjoy driving the car when it is not on
jackstands.

It is certainly a love/hate relationship.
I hate DPO Pedro with a passion.

dale</span>

swift6
12-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Dale, measure the distance between the bottom of the handle(when the brake is engaged) and the top of the driveshaft tunnel. Cut a block of wood to hold the parking brake handle up. You now have a functional parking brake that you can walkaway from. Easy/dirty fix until you kick that virus and have more time to devote to it. Also gives us some time to scrounge up the right parts/advice for you. Do you have all the right parts? Maybe some one can find a complete/assembled handle to send your way. I'll see what I can find.

BobbyD
12-11-2008, 07:25 PM
Bobby- go to your room an stand
in the corner for 45 minute. Contemplate
the lost work day you caused Dale.

Then you are welcome back into BCF but
not before!!d

I'm old and working from memory here :crazy: All I remember for sure is that I had trouble getting that bolt back through the whole thing. I'll just shut up, move to the back of the room and sit in time out for a while. :cryin:

prb51
12-11-2008, 07:47 PM
Dale,
If I ever counted the dollars spent on the multitude of cars I've owned for fun, not that I needed but for fun, I'd have myself committed.
But hey, you can't take it with you and I do love the sport...it is a sport by the way and not a hobby. There are win/loss columns, injuries, bad plays, time outs, and poor choices of players (autos to care for).
We've all been there but often don't like to admit it.
Here are some pics of a MBz 190sl I 'restored' that cost me enough money to buy the Senatorial seat in Illinois, with enough left over to rent the Gary Harts boat for a cruise.
I did enjoy it though and met a great many folks of like mind in the MBz circles that I am still in contact with.
Sometimes it's best to just let 'it' sit for awhile and do something else.

https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/prb51/DSC00055_1.jpg
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/prb51/DSC00059_1.jpg
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/prb51/DSC00060_1.jpg

p.s. I did not recoup my investment upon sale....the car looked so much better than it was, unibody problems, mechanical issues etc....sound familiar

Tinster
12-11-2008, 07:57 PM
I'd give anything to have my original "Ropa
parked in the garage instead of my brokekdown, POS TR6.

One of the major blunders in my life was selling the "Ropa.
Dang, that car would corner the daylights out of a a Porsche!!

Only sex was betten than banging 2ng gear in a "Ropa
going out of a tight radius turn.

d

Silverghost
12-12-2008, 10:39 AM
From what I see, there is NO WAY that arrangement works. With the pivot point in the upper hole of DR5, and the "hook" of DR3 in the lower hole of DR5, the spring DR4 will push DR3 away from the ratchet plate DR7, pulling the "teeth" end of DR5 AWAY from the teeth of DR7.

I notice in the drawing that the rod of DR3 seems to have a slight bend in it. What I suspect is that the "hook" end of DR3 should actually press against DR5 above the pivot point DR6 and that there should be a spring in the lower hole of DR5. This spring would pull the "teeth" of DR5 into the teeth of the ratchet plate DR7 and then DR3 would push on the top of DR5, disengaging the teeth. And, based on the shape of the ratchet plate (DR7) that explains the hook shape on the bottom - the spring should run from the lower hole in DR6 to the slot in the bottom of DR7.

And you do have another resource, the newly arrived TR6! Take a look at his car and see how that one is done! :smile:

I hope this helps.

Peter

71MKIV
12-13-2008, 07:58 AM
If the tr6 handbrake is anything like the Spitfire handbrake...

I will try to explain how I did mine.

Pull the clevis pin out that holds the cable assembly to the handle.
Handle out of the car, upside down on the bench for the first part.
Install the cam dr5 and it's pivot dr6. Making sure the teeth are toward the large end of the handle, don't ask me why I make this point.
Slide the button and spring assembly dr3/4 into the handle with the open side of the loop facing toward you. This loop goes over the top of the cam. You need to accomplish two things here, getting the button centered to go into the handle, and rotate the cam into the half circle as the assembly comes into position.

Another way would be to install the button/spring/actuator wire assembly first, held in with a strip of duct tape, and then put the cam in, with it's rounded top nestling into the half circle, and then put the cam pivot in.

There is no direct connection between the cam and the button assembly, the wire just lays on top of the cam, held there by the fact that there is no room inside the handle for it to slip off the cam. This might be the point that is the confusion.

Now comes the part that you can't do on Sunday because it takes some cussing to get it done.

I used a strip of duct tape to hold the button in until the whole thing was safely installed in the car.

There is a little "wing" on the bottom of the ratchet assembly, dr7, that fits over a corresponding tang of sheetmetel sticking out of the handbrake mount on the car.

You must put the ratchet in the handle, start to slide the handle into position, put the wing over the tang, rotate the ratchet into position in the handle and put the pivot clevis into the handle capturing the ratchet.

I found it helpful to coerce an unwilling accomplice to put a loose fitting pin punch (a 1/4 inch drive extension would work too) in the pivot of the handle to hold everything sort of where it belonged while I got the pivot pin ready.

The ratchet "floats", captured by the pivot pin and sheet metel tang, resumably so that there is always a little "slack" in the cables so the cam doesn't bind on the ratchet.

Remove the duct tape installed in the previous step.

Once the pivot pin is installed, the cable clevis can be put back on the handle.

and tada, one functioning parking brake. Piece of cake. :rolleyes:

Buck up Dale, the pictures show a car that would be welcome at any gathering of LBC's. You have something to be proud of there. Don't let your discouragement over this one aggravation drag your whole view of your hobby down.

If I may be so bold, from what I see in some of your posts, perhaps your percieved machanical ability causes you to replace parts that are not necessarily needing to be replaced. Notice that I said "percieved" because no one, no one, gets to the point you are at, especially with a car that was as buggered as you say this on WAS, without some innate mechanical ability.

kc_doyle
12-13-2008, 12:22 PM
A year ago last spring I fired my Spit up after a long winter. With a few spins and much choke it started. I was a happy camper. When it warmed I backed it out of my garage. Now comes the exciting part. After about ten feet my drive is on quite a slope. That being said, I backed out and pushed the brake and nothing. Right to the floor. The MC blew. My hand brake wasn't gold but it did stop me. Till then I always felt that "it's good enough." First thing after fixing the MC was to adjust my hand brake. It works now..

Tinster
12-13-2008, 12:57 PM
Thanks Steve-

Here is as far as I got before I gave up
and put everything back together without the spring and
button: I have a functional hand break, I just cannot lock it into position.

d


Pull the clevis pin out that holds the cable assembly to the handle.
Handle out of the car, upside down on the bench for the first part.
Install the cam dr5 and it's pivot dr6. Making sure the teeth are toward the large end of the handle, don't ask me why I make this point.
Slide the button and spring assembly dr3/4 into the handle with the open side of the loop facing toward you. This loop goes over the top of the cam. You need to accomplish two things here, getting the button centered to go into the handle, and rotate the cam into the half circle as the assembly comes into position.

Another way would be to install the button/spring/actuator wire assembly first, held in with a strip of duct tape, and then put the cam in, with it's rounded top nestling into the half circle, and then put the cam pivot in.

There is no direct connection between the cam and the button assembly, the wire just lays on top of the cam, held there by the fact that there is no room inside the handle for it to slip off the cam. This might be the point that is the confusion.

I used a strip of duct tape to hold the button in until the whole thing was safely installed in the car.

There is a little "wing" on the bottom of the ratchet assembly, dr7, that fits over a corresponding tang of sheetmetel sticking out of the handbrake mount on the car.

You must put the ratchet in the handle, start to slide the handle into position, put the wing over the tang, rotate the ratchet into position in the handle and put the pivot clevis into the handle capturing the ratchet.

I found it helpful to coerce an unwilling accomplice to put a loose fitting pin punch (a 1/4 inch drive extension would work too) in the pivot of the handle to hold everything sort of where it belonged while I got the pivot pin ready.