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Tinster
12-08-2008, 01:29 PM
All good things must eventually come to an end.

The Crypt Car is back on jack stands! until further notice.

I just about rear ended another car yesterday when the brakes
failed to stop the Six. Hand brake of almost no value at all.
Master cylinder fluid level perfect, no leaks on the break cylinders.
I'm guessing I need a normal new brake pad adjustment. I have the TRF
adjustment tool- now how to use it??

I am hoping the Crypt Car will be off jackstands before New Years!!!

d

Andrew Mace
12-08-2008, 01:36 PM
Dale, more information, please! Did the pedal sink helplessly to the floor? If so, could you "pump it up" at all? Did the handbrake seem to engage anything?

or

Was the pedal extremely hard?

or

????

I assume you're referring to the tool for rear brake adjustment? If so, the adjusters work in quarter-turn increments, clockwise to "tighten." Turn them clockwise until the wheel cannot turn, then back off by quarter-turn (or two) until the wheel turns easily (don't confuse brake drag with normal "drag" of the differential gears in their oil, etc.).

prb51
12-08-2008, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't think brakes out of adjustment would suddenly act in that manner.
What exactly transpired: foot pressure, pedal response (hard, soft, height etc.)
How far did the vehicle travel once applied, speed, was there a little braking action?
There are other threads that address increasing the leverage action of the TR6 handbrake.

Tinster
12-08-2008, 01:51 PM
Andy- the pedal has becomming softer and softer but
pumping the pedal has no effect at all.

I know just about zero of auto mechanics but even
my dim brain thinks that after almost 2000 miles on the
new rear brake shoes, they need to be ajusted
and so does the brand new hand brake!

I might as well "fine tune" the new rear suspension while
I have the car on jack stands. I'll betcha the Armstrong
level shocks could us a quirt of fork oil!!

later gator,

d

roofman
12-08-2008, 01:53 PM
As fast as you drive in your videos, maybe you wore the pads out?

Russ Austin
12-08-2008, 01:54 PM
Shoot the dam thing!

Tinster
12-08-2008, 02:06 PM
Shoot the dam thing!

<span style="color: #990000"> </span> Too much money out of pockets to
shoot!!

Gotta make do with it.

d

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/twentyb.jpg

tdskip
12-08-2008, 02:10 PM
Pads and shoes shouldn't be worn out after 2K miles. Soft pedal getting softer over time would suggest a brake fluid issue, no?

Hand brake effectiveness could be effected by leaking fluid maybe?

Brosky
12-08-2008, 02:28 PM
What condition are the front brake hoses in? They could be getting too weak and expanding slightly, causing a soft pedal, lack of stopping power.

Do the brakes simply need bled? Possibly.....

There is not adjustment in the front, so unless the pad thickness is way down from new, that should be fine.

The rear does less than 50% of the total braking of the car, so no way in the world would the shoes be worn out at 2,000 miles from normal wear and tear. Could they use adjustment? Possibly, but not likely after 2,000 miles unless they were not adjusted properly to begin with and I think that Dave installed them with Dale, so that's not likely.

What color is the brake fluid? Perfectly clear or dark and cloudy?

More information needed before diagnosis can be completed.

Andrew Mace
12-08-2008, 03:50 PM
From what little additional information Dale has added, I'm beginning to wonder if there might be an "internal" leak in the master cylinder? It's about the only scenario I can think of at the moment that might not be temporarily overcome with pumping of the pedal?

Tinster
12-08-2008, 04:20 PM
Not a drop of brake fluid on the floor and the master
cylinder is always full. Dale, all by himself, installed
the new rear break shoes and springs. Dave installed the
break wheel cylinders and brake master cylinder.

I do not think this is a major Crypt Car issue but simply
a maintenenance issue of adjusting my "new rear breaks".

I have not looked at the front brakes---- since I replaced
the front suspension systems. All in good time!!!

d :crazyeyes:

NickMorgan
12-08-2008, 04:20 PM
Dale,
Just a quick bit of maintenance needed there I am sure! You may well find that you just need to adjust up the rear brakes. Otherwise if the pads/shoes may be contaminated or as has been suggested maybe a master cylinder problem.

shorn
12-08-2008, 06:26 PM
First thing I would do is bleed or rebleed the brakes. I would not think the rear's need adjustment at 2K, but that is easy to do. Are the rubber brake hoses new?

Tinster
12-08-2008, 06:32 PM
First thing I would do is bleed or rebleed the brakes. I would not think the rear's need adjustment at 2K, but that is easy to do. Are the rubber brake hoses new?

[color:#000099] [/<span style="font-size: 20pt">color] Yuup!! Everything is new!!</span>

Andrew Mace
12-08-2008, 06:35 PM
I would not think the rear's need adjustment at 2K, but that is easy to do.Actually, given the variable quality of new brake shoes, it wouldn't surprise me at all that they could use adjustment!

poolboy
12-08-2008, 09:03 PM
How many clicks does your hand brake lever make before the rear wheels are locked ?

Bob Claffie
12-08-2008, 09:20 PM
Andy I like your previous idea of the fluid bypassing the seals inside the cylinder. As far as the rear brakes go , they couldn't be worn out in that mileage unless they were made of cardboard. Adjustment may have had an effect on the HB effectiveness, but only if they were waaaay off from the get go. Bob

prb51
12-08-2008, 09:39 PM
Adjust the rears but that wouldn't make a soft pedal. Master cylinder probably as outlined above.
Rears are only 20/30% of stopping power anyway.
I keep my TR3 rears slightly out of adjustment as I have the 11 inch discs in front and the 10" drums (known for locking up if used hard) and the car stops fine and fast.

DNK
12-08-2008, 09:41 PM
Dale- Pull the pads and mic them for our knowledge.

Andrew Mace
12-08-2008, 10:54 PM
Adjust the rears but that wouldn't make a soft pedal.True, but it would make for a rather low pedal, albeit one that usually can be pumped up (semantics here, I know....)!

Master cylinder probably as outlined above.I'm still liking that theory myself. Dale, you might just try putting a firm foot on the pedal for a minute or two and see if the pedal stays where it is, or if it slowly sinks. And let us know if there's a lot of travel before you feel anything. And especially if you feel the pedal start to sink and you're sure there are no external leaks, have someone watch in the master cylinder reservoir and see if they spot any bubbles.

I keep my TR3 rears slightly out of adjustment as I have the 11 inch discs in front and the 10" drums (known for locking up if used hard) and the car stops fine and fast. Sounds like a clever way to effect "brake proportioning," but don't you end up with a bit of extra pedal travel?

prb51
12-08-2008, 11:40 PM
[/quote]Sounds like a clever way to effect "brake proportioning," but don't you end up with a bit of extra pedal travel? [/quote]

Not really, I didn't even notice a difference in travel as it's just slightly out of 'normal' adjustment. I can pretty much stand on them without locking up the rears.
The emergency brake pull is just a tad longer but I still use that brake (solo) on the many steep downhills we have locally.
Great leverage as built on the 3.
I believe the later 9" drums dealt with this issue altogether.

I still can't imagine the rears leading to a soft pedal alone...maybe with air in the system and out of adj, but you'd think a few pumps and you'd be good to go.

tom628
12-09-2008, 01:21 AM
Dale: I'm not quite clear from your description of the incident of exactly how (or if) the brakes malfunctioned.
Did the wheels lock up at all, or were you unable to get anywhere near that much braking force from the car?
Have you ever tried simulated emergency stops, on a suitably deserted road? Do you know if, in fact, the brakes have enough power to lock any or all wheels (not that that is the best method for a controlled stop).
What was the role of the handbrake in this incident?
It might help, when you finish your checks of the braking system to take Amos onto a dirt road and try to lock up the wheels to see if all four show evidence of braking.
Don't mean to badger you with so many comments, Dale, but many factors can contribute to less than adequate braking performance and you don't want to wait for an emergency to find out if they perform up to par.

Tom

TRopic6
12-09-2008, 02:23 AM
If the brake booster isn't working it takes noticeably more pedal pressure to stop. At least it did when my car cut off suddenly (a time or two). Does it do it every time?

Jeff
2xTR6

Tinster
12-09-2008, 07:53 AM
OK! Here's a bit of an update on my brakes.

NO! It was never possible to lockup my new brakes with
pedal pressure. No! The new hand brake will not hold
the car on the slightest of inclines. I managed to get
my car into the road shoulder before I hit the car in
front of me.

NO! my brake wheel cylinders are new and don't leak.
My brake master cyclinder is new and does not leak.
The brakes have been bled twice now. No bubbles

By "soft pedal" I mean I cannot lock up the rear wheels.

I pulled the passenger rear end apart yesterday. No
leaking fluids anywhere. I tightened down the hand brake
cable and pull arm. I tightened the brake pad square
adjuster. I cleaned up everything and greased all the
zerks I could reach. I put a torque wrench on all the
fasteners to verify Bentley settings.

I also noticed a split in the brake booster vacuum hose
where it fits onto the intake manifold. I cut out the split.

I'm not feeling so well today, so I may not tackle the other rear wheel.

regards,

dhttps://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/adjustBrakes.jpg

RomanH
12-09-2008, 08:25 AM
Hi Dale,
The hose that you are using on for the vacuum booster supply is it vacuum hose or is it fuel line. If it is fuel line, GET RID OF IT!
Fuel hose collapses when you apply the brakes and makes it feel that you don't have brakes. I had this situation with my car and when I changed out to the proper vacuum booster hose the change in performance was dramatic.
Just another idea to add to the list.
Good luck! :thumbsup:

TR6oldtimer
12-09-2008, 11:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]I also noticed a split in the brake booster vacuum hose where it fits onto the intake manifold. I cut out the split.
[/QUOTE]
Dale, a vacuum leak will reduce the efficiency of the brake booster. It will also affect engine tuning, which you have had some problems with.

Now that you have fixed that, ajust the rear brakes, and the hand brake. Then give it a go.

poolboy
12-09-2008, 11:32 AM
A Quick way to see if your rear brakes need adjustment is to pull your hand brake lever up. If you don't feel resistance by 3 clicks and full lock up on both wheels by 5 clicks, you got some adjusting to do.

71MKIV
12-09-2008, 11:32 AM
Vacuum leak at the booster,

weak brakes, hard start.

Is it just me, or have I heard that before?

Tinster
12-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Vacuum leak at the booster,

weak brakes, hard start.

Is it just me, or have I heard that before?

<span style="color: #990000">Sorry, I'm not a technical/wrench owner.
What have you just told me?? I do not see the connection??

thanks,

I am happy when my car starts, drives more than 10 miles
without a breakdown and returns home under it's own power..

dale </span>

Tinster
12-09-2008, 12:02 PM
A Quick way to see if your rear brakes need adjustment is to pull your hand brake lever up. If you don't feel resistance by 3 clicks and full lock up on both wheels by 5 clicks, you got some adjusting to do.

<span style="color: #660000">Poolboy-

my handbrake is still somewhat Pedro-ized. The clicking mechanism
does not function. I've installed new cables and hooked them up.
That's where I am now. No clicking, yet!! The lever arm is really
Pedro-ized badly. I've had other priorities. (there were no cables
at all when we bought the car)

d</span>

tdskip
12-09-2008, 12:58 PM
Vacuum leak at the booster,

weak brakes, hard start.

Is it just me, or have I heard that before?

<span style="color: #990000">Sorry, I'm not a technical/wrench owner.
What have you just told me?? I do not see the connection??

thanks,

I am happy when my car starts, drives more than 10 miles
without a breakdown and returns home under it's own power..

dale </span>

Hi Dale - I think the point here is that a vacuum leak will cause several problems. It could easily impact your braking effectiveness as well as introduce poor running conditions.

As far as your hand brake goes - it should hold the car when pulled up 2/3 of the way (clicking is based on the tooth gear in the cockpit where the handbrake goes into the transmission tunnel). You should have solid resistance when pulled 2/3 up and car should be solidly held in place. If it isn't then the handbrake isn't pulling on the rear brakes hard enough and needs to be adjusted.

The "no clicking" issue will need to get fixed since that is what holds the hand brake in the up position and thus keeps the pressure on the rear brake so the car doesn't move.

When you turn the rear wheel do you feel some drag from the brakes on it?

Andrew Mace
12-09-2008, 01:05 PM
<span style="color: #660000">...my handbrake is still somewhat Pedro-ized. The clicking mechanism
does not function....</span> Hmmm....

In true DPO fashion, I wonder if Amos (I will NOT call it by that other name!) might have had an older fly-off-style handbrake lever fitted.

Dale, for sake of a hopefully clear explanation: older TRs had what was described as a fly-off handbrake, whereby a quick pulling up of the lever was all that was needed to DISengage it; pushing the button while holding up the handle would then set the handbrake. Later ones, such as (most if not all?) TR6, had whast is usually called a "fly-on" handbrake, whereby pulling up of the lever was all that was needed to ENGAGE it; pushing the button while slightly pulling up is the way to DISengage it.

If you have an earlier fly-off handbrake, it won't click. Simple as that.

Tinster
12-09-2008, 01:35 PM
No. my hand brake is buggered up, plain and simple.
DOP Pedro had no cables connected to the hand lever or
rear brakes. Just a handle that accomplished nothing.

I've installed the TRF hand brake system with proper cables
but the lever arm is still buggered up and has no "clicks"
nor will it hold the car on an incline.

d

Andrew Mace
12-09-2008, 01:44 PM
Oh well...it was a thought.... :wink:

71MKIV
12-09-2008, 01:58 PM
To explain my post,

I thought an earlier post had you saying your car was starting hard, and now you say the brakes are weak.

The booster vacuum line comes off at the manifold, ergo, when the booster vacuum line leaks, it means the fuel/air mixture in the manifold has way too much air and too little fuel, or "lean", which means that you have to choke the carb really hard in order to compensate for the leak for the car to run at all. Depending on where your booster line comes off the manifold, a set of cylinders could be running very rich while the another set is almost too lean to run.

with no vacuum at the booster to help you "step on the pedal" the brakes are then weak enough to put your sphincter just south of your adam's apple.

Now that you have adjusted your rear shoes, which is normal for a new set to center and seat themselves after a few miles, and gone out and gotten proper vacuum line for the booster and istalled it, take Amos back off the stands and go see what you've got and report back.

poolboy
12-09-2008, 02:02 PM
Am I understanding you correctly, Dale ?
Despite hearing no clicks when you pull the hand brake, no matter how high you pull the lever, it has no effect on the rear brakes ?
Even without hearing those clicks, by the time the lever is raised about 8 inches the wheels should lock up firmly.
I'd work on getting the cables adjusted so you at least have that much hand (emergency) brake.
Once you get that, just follow the procedure for adjusting the brake shoes with the adjuster mechanism, using that Square hole wrench.
If you find it difficult to turn the square adjuster, the adjuster is probably fouled with brake dust. You have to remove the brake drum to clean the adjuster. Just putting that out, just in case.

Tinster
12-09-2008, 04:59 PM
I've now got both cables adjusted and the brake shoes as well.

I'll do a test drive tomorrow.

d

Brooklands
12-09-2008, 05:06 PM
I'm not feeling so well today, so I may not tackle the other rear wheel.



Take a break and get some rest. After what you went through recently that is much more important!

GeeBee1
12-09-2008, 05:07 PM
Dale:

You can check the e brake without driving it :wink:

NickMorgan
12-09-2008, 05:19 PM
Dale,
Make sure that you adjust the rear shoes before you adjust the hand brake. If you do it the other way around you will never get any braking efficiency from the rear brakes using the pedal.
From what I remember of my TR4A that had a similar hand brake to the TR6 (except that it was fly-of) there was no way you would be able to lock up the rear brakes using the lever.
I hadn't realised that the TR6 had a servo. I suspect that the symptoms you describe could be because the servo is inoperative. Try starting the engine with your foot on the brake and see if the pedal goes down. If it does, your servo is working.
Nick

poolboy
12-09-2008, 06:42 PM
Dale,
Make sure that you adjust the rear shoes before you adjust the hand brake. If you do it the other way around you will never get any braking efficiency from the rear brakes using the pedal.

Nick

Nick, with all due respect, I don't see it that way. If you get the brake shoes on both wheels in full contact with the drums by the handbrake cable adjustment, then release the handbrake, the shoes can return to the same distance from the drums because of the limiting factor of the cable.
Then just use the adjuster to take up the distance between the now equal starting positions of the shoes and full contact with the brake drums.
I'm not saying you have to adjust the handbrake cables every time you need to adjust the brakes, just if you are having problems with handbrakes or installing new shoes.
At any rate, I don't see how doing the hand brake first would negatively affect the efficiency.
I'm opened minded about it and would like to hear how it would affect the braking efficiency, though.

Brosky
12-09-2008, 08:10 PM
The shoes should be as close to the drums as possible, without creating a drag, before any compensating cable adjustment is done. The cables should have minimal adjustment to fully engage the parking brake. The travel of the pistons in the wheel cylinders when engaging the shoes to the drums, should be minimal to get minimal pedal travel and maximum braking.

poolboy
12-09-2008, 08:22 PM
Would you agree, Paul, that between 3 and 5 clicks (for those of us that have clicks) is optimal for full lock-up with the handbrake ?

Brosky
12-09-2008, 08:41 PM
PB,

That is exactly where mine is tight now. 4 clicks, full lockup, but again, everything is brand new with only 1,300 miles on it. However, you should still be there via adjustment with parts that are seasoned.

poolboy
12-09-2008, 08:59 PM
Ok, then. What I'm getting at (and not making my point all that well) is that when you release the hand brake, your shoes travel back only as far as the 4 clicks brought them towards the drum. Both right and left moved equal distance if they were adjusted equally.
So now that that is equal and synchronized, by using the actual brake adjusters , the pistons can be adjusted to start simultaneously and travel equal distance when the brake pedal is pushed following the normal adjustment procedure.
Do you think I am over thinking this ?
It's the way I ended up getting the brakes on my car to grab equally with both the handbrake and the brake pedal when I started to sort things out under my ownership.

Brosky
12-09-2008, 09:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]OK, then. What I'm getting at (and not making my point all that well) is that when you release the hand brake, your shoes travel back only as far as the 4 clicks brought them towards the drum. Both right and left moved equal distance if they were adjusted equally.[/QUOTE]

Yes, if everything was equally adjusted, that would be correct.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]the pistons can be adjusted to start simultaneously and travel equal distance when the brake pedal is pushed following the normal adjustment procedure.[/QUOTE]

How would you adjust the pistons in the wheel cylinders that move hydraulically? Or do you mean the adjuster at the bottom of the shoes? I may have misunderstood you. If you adjust that first to get the shoes out as far as possible with no drag, that will be the end of it, except for taking up slack in the cable.

poolboy
12-09-2008, 10:35 PM
Yeah, Paul that's what I meant, using the adjuster on the bottom. I am begining to see that I was overcomplicating things. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

TRDejaVu
12-10-2008, 03:05 PM
With the adjuster you are setting the gap between the shoes and the drums to the nominal dimension required - that takes care of shoe wear. Operate the brake pedal and the hydraulic system will move the cylinder pistons to their nominal position. After that, the only thing left is to adjust the handbrake cables to their nominal position - that takes care of cable stretching. Done.

TR3driver
12-10-2008, 03:13 PM
Operate the brake pedal and the hydraulic system will move the cylinder pistons to their nominal position.Shouldn't even need to operate the pedal; as the 'nominal' piston position is bottomed in the bore. The shoe return springs should keep pressure against the slave piston all the time.

But what stepping on the pedal can do is cause the cylinder to move in the backing plate; which may cause the shoe adjustment to need another click or two if the brakes were just assembled or badly out of adjustment before.

TRDejaVu
12-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Correct, although...

Dateline sometime in the late 70s. My future best man did some brake work in the parking lot of where we worked (slow day). He got it done and went for a quick test drive. The only problem was that he hadn't pumped the brakes to take up the slack. The security guard who normally just lifted the gate and waved was on lunch and his replacement was more of a by the book person. When my best man realized that the gate wasn't going up he decided he better slow down, but the car didn't because he hadn't needed to use the brakes yet. There was a lot of report writing to explain the demolished security barrier. I always pump them as I want to be sure that everything is snugged up properly.

Brosky
12-10-2008, 03:53 PM
Pumping after is a necessity. Pumping before is not.

TR3driver
12-10-2008, 03:54 PM
The front calipers work that way; but not the rear drum brakes on a TR.

But it's ALWAYS a good idea to check the brakes after any work and before you actually need them ! After an unpleasant incident where my brakes had failed just sitting in a parking spot, I now make checking for "pedal" part of my startup sequence. Many newer cars will refuse to go into gear if you don't.

That little incident also taught me the value of having a working hand brake ... after backing out of the parking spot, I headed down a steep hill into an underground parking garage before realizing that all my brake fluid was back in the parking spot.

Tinster
12-10-2008, 03:58 PM
Well, a mechanic I ain't but nuts and bolts I can grasp.

I pulled both wheels, deep cleaned everything, checked
for proper fastener torque readings, greased all the zerks
I could reach, used my handy dandy Roadster Factory brake
adjustment tool to reset the brake shoes.

Got the slack out of the brand new hand brake cables.

Added fork oil to the Armstrong level shocks.

Coated all the fastener heads with grease to keep the salt
air rusting to a minimum.

Took a test spin............car stops on a dime and
will lock rear wheels. The hand brake now holds the car on slight inclines.

A decent week in Crypt-land.

d
https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/BrakeDrun.jpg

weewillie
12-10-2008, 04:15 PM
Way to go Dale, always knew you could do it,

tdskip
12-10-2008, 04:43 PM
Yeh!

TRDejaVu
12-10-2008, 05:06 PM
A decent week in Crypt-land.
That doesn't count as Crypt or Pedro related. Amos' brakes just needed adjustment by its current owner.

Now you have a reference point as to how the brakes should feel and react, so if that starts to noticeably change you will be able to catch it in time.

Tinster
12-10-2008, 05:26 PM
A decent week in Crypt-land.
That doesn't count as Crypt or Pedro related. Amos' brakes just needed adjustment by its current owner.

Now you have a reference point as to how the brakes should feel and react, so if that starts to noticeably change you will be able to catch it in time.

<span style="color: #660000"> Point made Ian !!
I am forever stunned by the vast amount of automotive knowledge I lack.
Also a major handicap for me is I've had no other TR6 to look at or
drive for comparisons. This three year restoration has been almost 100%
by internet LBC experts and me the hands-on laborer.

Now I learned today a TR6 has "real" brakes.

later gator,

d</span>

TRDejaVu
12-10-2008, 06:00 PM
It wasn't meant as a slap. Now you have to remember about hard braking techniques before anti-lock brakes became common.

Don't be hard on yourself; there are things that you have done on that car that I haven't had the experience of doing yet. There are also many classic car drivers who won't even change their own oil or plugs, yet are still quite opinionated and use the line, "because my mechanic said so". You are proof that with a bit of guidance it can be done. Remember, even the experts on this forum are not above asking questions when they don't know the answer to a particular problem.

Brosky
12-10-2008, 09:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Also a major handicap for me is I've had no other TR6 to look at or drive for comparisons. [/QUOTE]

Well, you do have this forum and we have digital cameras to help you out when possible. The driving for comparison part is a bit more difficult.

tom628
12-11-2008, 12:54 AM
Nice going Dale. I think we all admire your persistence. And now you've just added another increment to your body of mechanical knowledge thru experience, just as everyone on this forum has done over the years. Some of us may just have gotten an earlier start, but we've all learned from others.
Happy driving.

Tom

NickMorgan
12-11-2008, 07:32 AM
Well done Dale. A satisfying day's work for you.

71MKIV
12-11-2008, 08:28 AM
Whoo hoo, well done.


My only comment is to bury Crypt.

Long live Amos!

TRnorwegian
12-12-2008, 09:59 PM
I don't know the whole history, but something tells me Pedro is part of it.
My advise is go see the local voodoo-doctor (you have such in PR, don't ya), stick some needles in the right places, cast some spells around and get the matter unjinxed. Then have the local padre bless the car.