PDA

View Full Version : HELP! My car won't start.



2wrench
09-21-2008, 03:25 PM
Ladies and gentlemen: This is not a drill. This is what
you've been trained to do.

My car won't start and I need to begin the trouble-shooting
phase.

Please try to speak in: Mechanics for Dummies mode.

I have verified fuel to the gas lines just short of the
carbs.

I have spark from coil to rotor cap.
I have spark at the number one spark plug wire.
Did not pull the spark plug to verify spark down to the
plug, but it seems it should be there.

Just to note: Distributor has minimum of movement because
it hits the gas line.

The things that nag me are: Timing..like something to do
with the gear cog below the distributor for 1); flat out
whether I have the cam properly in synch with the crank.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 04:08 PM
Are you able to orient the dizzy such that the wire to Cylinder #1 is at approx. 7 o'clock? As reference, the oil filler cap is at about 12 o'clock.
the rest of the wires in a counterclock direction 5,3,6,2,and 4.

TheSearcherMan
09-21-2008, 04:27 PM
pull the #1 plug, find the compression stroke on #1, line up the pointer with TDC on the damper, and see if the rotor is lined up with #1 on the cap. If this is not the case, then the dist. gear is in wrong. Also, with the TDC on the damper lined up, on the compression stroke, both valves for #1 should be closed . If not, cam timing is wrong.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 04:41 PM
Are you able to orient the dizzy such that the wire to Cylinder #1 is at approx. 7 o'clock? As reference, the oil filler cap is at about 12 o'clock.
the rest of the wires in a counterclock direction 5,3,6,2,and 4.

Dizzy is oriented as outlined.

TR3driver
09-21-2008, 04:44 PM
What TheSearcherMan said!

But a few more points:
I would suggest feeling down the #1 plug hole with a pencil or something to ensure that the piston is really at TDC with the marks lined up. Sometimes dampers lie.

With #1 at TDC between compression and power strokes (ie firing position), look at the valves for #6. They should be open by roughly the same amount, if the cam timing is correct.

If fuel is the problem (2008 fuel seems particularly apt to block jets and make float valves stick closed), then a shot of "jet spray" carb cleaner down each carb throat should let the engine fire a few times, if not actually start briefly and die.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 04:48 PM
Okay. Need to find way to line up TDC on damper. Difficult because
no fluid in tranny. Fill plug being a bugger to loosen. My idea is
to put car in high gear and roll till damper shows TDC. Gear shift knob
not installed. Tranny dry.

Any suggestions? Is there a proper tool to remove this square fill plug
from side of tranny. The thing is soft brass.

Youch....

Andrew Mace
09-21-2008, 04:54 PM
Sounds like a replacement plug. Of course, that might be a good idea, since the original ones are iron / steel / whatever and seem to really get stuck in alloy gearbox cases over time.

Meanwhile, how much can you turn the distributor. In desperation, I've been known to have the ignition on and hit the button on the starter solenoid while turning the distributor back and forth in hopes of finding a spot where it's close enough to get the engine started! :smile:

2wrench
09-21-2008, 04:58 PM
pull the #1 plug, find the compression stroke on #1, line up the pointer with TDC on the damper, and see if the rotor is lined up with #1 on the cap. If this is not the case, then the dist. gear is in wrong. Also, with the TDC on the damper lined up, on the compression stroke, both valves for #1 should be closed . If not, cam timing is wrong.


I will need a little more explanation on "find the compression stroke on number 1."

Got a buddy here bumping the engine over....kinda like shooting craps. Got to be a better
way. Is it possible to put it in gear and roll the small distance without hurting the
tranny?

poolboy
09-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Brass? Then someone replaced it. The plug is tapered pipe threads same as the drain plug.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 05:05 PM
You'll find you can turn the engine over more easily with the spark plugs removed. Then you can turn it over in neutral by turning the fan by hand or the alternator with a wrench or socket on the nut, if the fan belt is installed. Of course the valve cover must be removed to observe the position of the valves.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Okay. We're kind of cross-posting here a bit. We've gotten the
thing in fourth gear; lined up the damper at top dead center;
verified the number one piston is up; verified that piston number 6
intake and exhaust valves are in equal positions....

Gonna prime the carbs. If she doesn't start, do I then remove the dizzy
and invert 180 the drive gear cog, I think it's called....the gear, anyway?

TR3driver
09-21-2008, 05:14 PM
But, hand pushing the car with no oil in the gearbox won't hurt anything, if you'd rather do it that way.

One way of finding compression stroke is to hold your finger over the plug hole while someone else turns the engine. When it blows your finger off the hole, that's the compression stroke.

Another is to remove the valve cover and watch the valves. When both valves on #6 are moving at the same time (one opening, one closing), then #1 should be coming up on TDC compression.

The stock fill plug has a square head (and is pretty doggone soft, though not as soft as brass). Sears (or any quality tool store) will sell you a 8-point (not 6, not 12) 7/16" socket (preferably 1/2 inch drive) that is my favorite tool for removing them. Use a breaker bar to turn it, and if necessary, pry against the head of the breaker bar to hold the socket down onto the plug.

Then I always replace them with a hex socket pipe plug (MMC or similar), which are hardened and much less likely to round off. Plus a coating of teflon pipe "dope" as anti-seize.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 05:20 PM
Is it possible for everything to line up as it has, as outlined above,
and have the drive cog gear be installed 180 degrees off causing the
car not to start?

2wrench
09-21-2008, 05:20 PM
By the drive cog gear, I mean the gear below the dizzy.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 05:23 PM
If she doesn't start, do I then remove the dizzy
and invert 180 the drive gear cog, I think it's called....the gear, anyway?


The only way that you would need to do that is if the rotor is not pointing at plug wire #1 when the #1 cylinder is at TDC and both valves closed on that cylinder.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 05:32 PM
Pool: Looks like everything is checking out so far. I'm gonna head to the
parts store for carb cleaner to try to prime the thing. Seems the can I
have is quite low; can't angle the can to get a good spray shot.
Be back in 30 minutes or so.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 06:22 PM
Hmmmm. Still no pop. Loosened hoses to carbs. Getting plenty of gas
there, operating the fuel pump by hand.

Shot some starting fluid into the carbs. Still nothing. I'll
post some pics to verify what I'm seeing.

TheSearcherMan
09-21-2008, 06:30 PM
I don't know if I would be inclinded to run the engine with zero oil in the transmission. That's not going to be a good thing.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 06:31 PM
Are you using points and condensor or Pertronix or the like?

2wrench
09-21-2008, 07:05 PM
Points and condensor. Now I got the thing stuck in gear. Put the
gear shift handle in; pulled it where I needed it. All was well
Now, tried it again and got her stuck in gear.

Guess I need the right tool to remove the square fill plug on the
tranny; fill. Then are there just a few parts to install the gear
shift, temporarily?

I did move the cog gear on the bottom of the distributor. I lined
everything up; thought it looked good. Rotor was pointing over near
2:00 o'clock instead of 7:00. So, moved the cog gear 180. Guess I don't
want to try starting untill I get the tranny topped off.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 07:17 PM
Okay. Got the thing to pop after turning the gear cog 180.
Didn't continue to start on advice. I believe she was ready to fire
up. Again, it was aborted.

Next question: If it were to go, is it okay to run it with the valve
cover off or is that a problem?

Also, when she starts, I suppose the first eyes-on would be the
oil pressure. If I don't get pressure, then abort running, of course?

I'm running on a little bit of nervous energy/excitement right now,
so please keep this in mind.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 07:29 PM
Got the drain plug off and filled the tranny. Letting her drain off
excess fluid.

Back to the parts store for neve seize stuff for the tranny plug replacement.

Getting to be very exciting.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 07:31 PM
After all this, you deserve to be excited. You can run it for a while w/o the valve cover. It will get a little messy with some oil splattering.
It won't affect your oil pressure readings. Of course, some of the oil will not make it's way back to the sump. So keep that in mind, It won't be that much at low rpms.

Got to ask, what oil did you put in the tranny and is it 4 speed or have OD ?

:yesnod: Oh yeah, when you are trying the starter, don't be afraid to turn the dizzy as the engine spins. Not a lot, a half inch or so in either direction, slowly. When you hit the right spot the engine should start to run. Keep your dizzy loose enough to do that.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 08:15 PM
Cool, Poolboy. I put Hypoid, SAE 75W90 gear oil API/GL-5 Plus
purchased from Napa. Hope it's good.

I've returned from the store....again....with the anti-seize and will be
replacing the plug. Hope there is not problem with the tranny gear
selection.

The tranny is one I've just upgraded to an overdrive. Not all electronics
hooked up yet; speedometer cable disconnected. Sorry, but I just want
to hear her fire and run.

TR3driver
09-21-2008, 08:15 PM
Running for a bit with the rocker cover off is something I recommend every time you set the valves, to ensure that the entire shaft is getting lubed properly. However it does tend to throw tiny droplets of oil around, so I wouldn't do it for long.

Re oil pressure, My suggestion is to remove the plugs and spin the engine with the starter until the pressure comes up. Much less load on rubbing surfaces than with it running. Then it will come back up much faster when you do fire the engine (and reduce concerns that there might be a problem).

poolboy
09-21-2008, 08:27 PM
You're right Randall about starting up an engine that's been sitting or a rebuild that way, but in this case it might not be necessary, because unless I'm mistaken, 2 wrench has already been spinning it trying to get it started.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 08:29 PM
Okay, Started, but a bit rough. Doesn't idle on its own. Worst
concern????

Got oil dripping out of the back of the head. Quite a leak. Looks like
a screw or something should be in there. Youch! Can anybody help?

Nice little puddle of oil on my garage floor. While I await, I'll
make reference to the books.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 08:34 PM
Had the head rebuilt by the machine shop. Looks like maybe a plug or
something is missing out of the back of the head. The head is kinda
not so wet with oil as I'd like to see, but never havin done this, I
don't know.

Oil pressure at the gauge at about 50 lbs and oil dripping, again, out
the back of the head, like at the back left corner on the driver's side.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 08:36 PM
If I leave my web page open to this thread and just hit the refresh button,
will I get your responses right in front of me?

poolboy
09-21-2008, 08:38 PM
It will smooth out as it warms up. I'd be ready to rotate the dizzy to see if you can get the timing to smooth things out. Once you get that far you can set it with a light or better yet, by road test when you get it road worthy.
Then after you get the timing or at least a smooth running engine, it'll be time to set the carb mixture and finally synchronize them.
But you've come a long way already this afternoon. Congrats.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 08:43 PM
There is supposed to be a threaded plug and sealing washer back there to seal an oil passage.I bet the Moss catalog will show it.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 08:43 PM
The distributor is with the screw removed and turned to the right so far
it could not be screwed into place there.

Gotta stop till I get the oil thing dealt with.

tdskip
09-21-2008, 08:48 PM
Cool, Poolboy. I put Hypoid, SAE 75W90 gear oil API/GL-5 Plus
purchased from Napa. Hope it's good.

Actually - I'm not sure GL5 is good. Recommendations that I have seen are all GL4, evidently GL5 can negatively impact the brass parts in the transmission.

I'd get a second opinion at least.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 09:04 PM
Okay. I'll drain and change it if it's wrong.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 09:06 PM
OK. after you figure out the oil leak, take a look at the Dizzy. The clamping plate (moss# 543-135) is screwed/bolted to the block with the dizzy in it. The actual dizzy can rotate in the clamping plate and is clamped in place after you get the timing set by tightening a hex head bolt on the clamping plate. The bolt is in the horizonal plane, there is a "captive" square head nut on the other end of that bolt that does not turn as you loosen and tighten the clamping bolt. The only thing that will limit the rotation of the dizzy when you do it properly is the tachometer cable in the clockwise direction and the vacuum retard unit in the counterclockwise direction. Your sweet spot should be pretty close to the limit of the clockwise direction. The tach cable keep you from overdoing it.
From reading your post, I'm thinking you are trying to adjust the timing by turning the dizzy while it is clamped tight in the clamping plate and then trying to line up the holes to mount the clamping plate to the engine. That won't work. Bolt the plate tight to the engine and keep the clamping bolt loose so the dizzy will rotate but not the clamping plate.

2wrench
09-21-2008, 10:18 PM
Missing an oil feed plug on the back of the head. Will take a few days
to get it shipped. Dang. Gotta pull back on the reins.

poolboy
09-21-2008, 10:27 PM
Standing by. In the meantime you might want to look into the Tranny oil contraversy. If you come to the conclusion that you need GL-4, NAPA supplies Stalube GL-4 in quarts.

TR3driver
09-21-2008, 10:42 PM
Before you go replacing that GL-5, check the can/bottle and see if it's rated MT-1 as well. If so, it should be fine, IMO. Some GL-5 oils can accelerate wear of brass components (synchro rings, thrust washers), but not all of them do. The MT-1 rating was created to differentiate oils that are safe for Manual Transmissions.

Your point is well taken, poolboy, but it sounded like he had not seen oil pressure since it was built. Kind of a moot point now anyway <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

If I'm not mistaken, those are standard bolt threads on that plug. You could likely get by with a suitable bolt, nut and copper washer; until the proper plug comes in. Spin the nut up the bolt as far as it will go, add the washer and turn the bolt into the head by hand until it stops (hits the bottom of the threads). Then tighten the nut against the washer.

2wrench
09-22-2008, 07:20 AM
Before you go replacing that GL-5, check the can/bottle and see if it's rated MT-1 as well. If so, it should be fine, IMO. Some GL-5 oils can accelerate wear of brass components (synchro rings, thrust washers), but not all of them do. The MT-1 rating was created to differentiate oils that are safe for Manual Transmissions.

Your point is well taken, poolboy, but it sounded like he had not seen oil pressure since it was built. Kind of a moot point now anyway <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

If I'm not mistaken, those are standard bolt threads on that plug. You could likely get by with a suitable bolt, nut and copper washer; until the proper plug comes in. Spin the nut up the bolt as far as it will go, add the washer and turn the bolt into the head by hand until it stops (hits the bottom of the threads). Then tighten the nut against the washer.

Randall: It does say: "API Svc. Designation: GL-4, GL-5, MT-1 &amp; Proposed PG2," on the
back label. Hope that makes it cool. Oh, and it mentions: "For complete fill or topping off of manual transmissions."

2wrench
09-22-2008, 07:38 AM
Randall: I'm going to try to move into a little more patient mode.....
(reserving the right to flake on this).....because I've got these issues:
Like my darned speedo angle drive is just not right....wrong part or
something wrong there. Figure I might get some leaks if that's not
installed right. So, I'll just cool it till the parts come in. Take a
look at the dizzy. Should understand it better by the time the parts get
here, huh?

Now I have my recently painted hood....and my newly acquired hard top
in the livingroom.

Love my wife!

2wrench
09-22-2008, 07:43 AM
Thanks to all of you for being there for me at a time when the heart
is pounding and the blood is rushing.

Frankly, being so excited, I don't think I think so clearly.

Poolboy: Thanks for the "standing by," comment. It just points up how
you and the others are there for me.

Much appreciated everybody,

DrEntropy
09-22-2008, 07:49 AM
Which carbs have you got there, Dennis?

2wrench
09-22-2008, 07:59 AM
Hi, ya Doc. If I told you they were stock, would that be accurate enough?
I can post a pic and then I know you'd be able to tell me.

DrEntropy
09-22-2008, 08:01 AM
G'wan then. :wink:

2wrench
09-22-2008, 08:05 AM
It's 6:00 o'clock am. I've already run to the garage to bring into the
bedroom the gallon-size gear oil, which I set on the night stand next to the
bed as a reference to enter info into this thread. It has its usual clear plastic hose; hand pump and narrow black tip nozzle on it to shoot the lube right where it goes.

My wife comes into the bedroom, looks at it; then at me and says: "What
did you have in mind???"

I'll stop here......lol

DrEntropy
09-22-2008, 08:23 AM
T.M.I.!!!!

:shocked:

BTW: If my skin is exposed to hypoid gear oil I break out in hives. May wanna keep that possibility in mind... :devilgrin:

DrEntropy
09-22-2008, 08:27 AM
...waitaminnit....

You have your computer in yer BEDROOM?!?!

...we gotta get you some help, laddie.... :smirk:

TR3driver
09-22-2008, 09:23 AM
Figure I might get some leaks if that's not
installed right. Shouldn't be an issue; the seal is below the "top hat" adapter. Which is not to say you shouldn't get the angle drive right; only that if it leaks, there are other problems as well.

Patience is a virtue ... when you have something else to drive to work in the morning :jester:

2wrench
09-22-2008, 07:37 PM
Which carbs have you got there, Dennis?

Okay. BTW: No hives, here, promise.

Here's some pics of my carbs:

https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/2wrench/P1010002-47.jpg

A few others: https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/2wrench/P1010003-44.jpg

https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/2wrench/P1010001-48.jpg

https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/2wrench/P1010005-36.jpg

poolboy
09-22-2008, 07:52 PM
Looks like the typical 74's . That little tag, if original, should read 3613RH.
The actual original tags were likely brass or copper.
Duece, did you get the dizzy attachment concept?

tr6_easyrider
09-22-2008, 08:16 PM
2wrench
Not sure you want to use GL-4 or GL-5. Didn't in read you upgraded your trans to overdrive? Gear oil is not a good thing for overdrive. The recommended oil is 20w-50 VR1 Valvoline Racing Oil or NAPA 30w nondetergent. I have used both and the Valvoline works best for me. These are oils recommended by two different well known trans builders.

mrv8q
09-22-2008, 10:17 PM
Looks like the typical 74's.
Hmmm, on my '74, the dashpot tops are black; I thought 76s were white...
Also, your carb linkage doesn't look straight, in the vertical plane; could be the picture though. Glad to see you're making progress!

2wrench
09-23-2008, 01:51 AM
Just maybe taint so riginal as I thought. I'll check the numbers on the
tags and post 'em.

poolboy
09-23-2008, 08:49 AM
Looks like the typical 74's.
Hmmm, on my '74, the dashpot tops are black; I thought 76s were white...
Also, your carb linkage doesn't look straight, in the vertical plane; could be the picture though. Glad to see you're making progress!
The PO may have perferred white and changed them. If you look close you'll see the vacuum line for the Throttle Bypass Valve. As far as I know the 74 was the only year that was set up like that.

2wrench
09-23-2008, 03:05 PM
So the metal tag on one of the carbs says: 377 1R B13. What the heck
does this mean?

poolboy
09-23-2008, 03:40 PM
Well,, 3771 does indicate the series used in 75 and 76 as "mrv8q" observed. The "R" is for "right" (front).
Looks like a modified version, with the Throttle Bypass Valves from a 74. Perhaps that's the meaning of B13, taken from the 74 carb's # of 36<span style="text-decoration: underline">13 </span>

2wrench
09-24-2008, 05:28 AM
Just a quick note: My sister was a previous owner of this car. She says
she replaced a lot of stuff but tried very hard to keep it original,
cept she's hired somebody else at all times and wouldn't know if they
slipped a '75 or '76 carb body in on her.

2wrench
09-24-2008, 05:29 AM
Just a quick note: My sister was a previous owner of this car. She says
she replaced a lot of stuff but tried very hard to keep it original,
cept she's hired somebody else at all times and wouldn't know if they
slipped a '75 or '76 carb body in on her.

DNK
09-24-2008, 10:27 AM
You bought a car from your sister??? :crazyeyes:

2wrench
09-24-2008, 07:40 PM
Sure, Don. She had two convertibles: 450 SL and the TR6 she planned on
restoring. She chose to focus on one or the other; put them up for sale
and I told her I'd drive them both then take my pick.

Rest is history.

2wrench
09-24-2008, 07:41 PM
Question: If I drain the fluid from the tranny, do I also need to look
for another drain plug on the overdrive unit itself, or is it cool just
to drain the tranny from the bottom?

2wrench
09-24-2008, 07:45 PM
Question: Want to replace my fill plug on the tranny with a brass unit
that will accommodate my six point sockets. See any problem with this?
I have a replacement in steel, but the darned thing is hard to remove.

Could it be this part should only be placed in like finger tight or
something??

2wrench
09-24-2008, 11:56 PM
Got the oil leak at the back of the head fixed. Got to look at the dizzy
again. Tried to fire her but nothing. It started before. I did remove
the dizzy. Wonder if I could have put it back in wrong or something.

Guess I gotta crack the books.

swift6
09-25-2008, 12:17 AM
Did you double check your firing order?

2wrench
09-25-2008, 05:52 AM
Quick note: Got it to run. Moving dizzy doesn't seem to change running.
Will try again later. Got to go to work.

poolboy
09-25-2008, 02:16 PM
OK. after you figure out the oil leak, take a look at the Dizzy. The clamping plate (moss# 543-135) is screwed/bolted to the block with the dizzy in it. The actual dizzy can rotate in the clamping plate and is clamped in place after you get the timing set by tightening a hex head bolt on the clamping plate. The bolt is in the horizonal plane, there is a "captive" square head nut on the other end of that bolt that does not turn as you loosen and tighten the clamping bolt. The only thing that will limit the rotation of the dizzy when you do it properly is the tachometer cable in the clockwise direction and the vacuum retard unit in the counterclockwise direction. Your sweet spot should be pretty close to the limit of the clockwise direction. The tach cable keep you from overdoing it.
From reading your post, I'm thinking you are trying to adjust the timing by turning the dizzy while it is clamped tight in the clamping plate and then trying to line up the holes to mount the clamping plate to the engine. That won't work. Bolt the plate tight to the engine and keep the clamping bolt loose so the dizzy will rotate but not the clamping plate.
Just a reminder. When you start out, if you have the dizzy located properly, the wire to spark plug #1 will be at about the 7 o'clock position on the dizzy cap. And the firing order Counterclockwise is 1,5,3,6,2,4.